<p>I agree @intparent Wife is delighted D was deferred. There is so much to evaluate out there, and with money offers coming in already, being deferred is a real blessing of sorts.</p>
<p>I should also say that a Columbia counselor I spoke with was utterly adamant that “ED gives you no advantage over RD. We know from experience and research exactly what we are going to get in RD and ED applications get no preference.” So, for Columbia, at least, ED may carry no advantage at all.</p>
<p>And there seems to be sort of a meme going around - at least among my daughters’ FA-ineligible peers - “Why spend parents’ money, just because they have fat bank accounts, at a private undergrad school when it is graduate school that counts anyway?” There is a decrease in Ivy apps at her school. Some of the Ivies - I would exclude Columbia and one or two others - are becoming <em>almost</em> caricatures, through no fault of their own maybe. Small liberal arts colleges and flagship state U are really in now.</p>
<p>Just an interesting story, I sat next to a young lady on a trip the other day, she applied to 26 (!) colleges and finally talked herself into full ride at a good school. She bargained endlessly with FA officers, approached some contacts from in her church and elsewhere, and after weeks of this got her way (“Sir, don’t pay the private school tuition, please don’t do that. It’s insane. There will be students sitting next to her paying nothing”) She’s from a wealthy family, just started law school, and has a campus job plus is TA’ing a few classes, and is paying out of pocket 7500 / year for law school. “I’m going to have a law degree from a nationally known law school for 40,000.00 total cost and I think they’re making a big profit off of me at that.” She is a real character, very refreshing. I’d hate to be a criminal defendant if she is ever a prosecutor. I told my wife she’s going over to the defendant’s table, grab him around the throat and choke the hell out of him, and then beat him to death with her fists. Merciless.</p>
<p>This is not news to most parents out here… an Ivy undergrad education isn’t the only way to get into a top grad school program, and saving money on undergrad is smart (especially if you plan to attend grad school for a major that does not have funded grad school programs, like law or medicine). </p>
<p>@Jimkingwood, although I was rooting for your daughter to be admitted, I agree that in some ways it’s better that she was deferred (particularly if she is ultimately admitted in the RD round). I am not a fan of ED, as I think it benefits the school, not the student. As I mentioned, my son applied RD (he did not apply ED anywhere) and having the ability to decide among several schools, as well as the added time and maturity to decide what he really wanted, was very useful. I think his decision to go to Columbia, and our decision to fund it, was a more well thought out decision as a result. And this helped in our feeling no regrets. </p>
<p>However, I don’t agree with the “grad school is all that counts” mantra that I sometimes see here and elsewhere. I think it’s wrong to view college as merely a means to get into graduate school, just as I think it’s wrong to view high school as merely a means to get into college. People are shaped by their experiences and there are differences between colleges. It’s important for the student to end up at a school where he or she will be challenged, stimulated and satisfied. It’s great that your daughter has already been admitted to some good schools with some good merit offers. I’ll continue to hope that she’s ultimately admitted to Columbia too and then you and she will have the ability to make an unconstrained choice.</p>
<p>Chiming in here to add that sometimes the quality of the undergrad experience (and along with that, the reputation of the undergrad institution) can play a large part in a student’s getting admitted to a fully funded grad program. In our case, we are convinced that our financial sacrifice in sending our D to a quality undergrad program (Barnard) essentially “paid for” her graduate degree program, which is a fully funded PhD program at a very well respected university. </p>
<p>@churchmusicmom I hear you, and I would think so, too, but Ivy profs will tell you that undergrad schools make zero difference in their selection of grad students. One prominent guy wrote recently that he pulls people from small, regional colleges, liberal arts schools, its really the person. “Don’t send your kids to the Ivies of you have to pay” was his mantra. “They’ll take the same courses, we just want to see their grad entrance exam scores and maybe interview”</p>
<p>In fact some of the small LA schools blow the Ivies away when it comes to producing eventual phd’s, in terms of phd per undergrad. I think Reed and Davidson both do. </p>
<p>@churchmusicmom And I can convince myself the opposite. She is progressive (kind of very liberal, actually) dislike obvious middle-class pretensions and religion-on-sleeve stuff, so she really is coastal material. She really could be a prominent academician, author, or scientist; this has been pointed out repeatedly to her / us. I think matriculating in New York could be best for her. She needs to be challenged intellectually and she lives to challenge assumptions. </p>
<p>And for families that get lots of need based aid, Columbia and other full need schools can be cheaper than the state university, or at least close enough that non-financial factors come into play. My family is very grateful for the fabulous FA Columbia offers! </p>
<p>@momfromme I know that the Ivies are very generous if need is required, and I’m sure no one resents that. It is a good thing. But having to pay full cost including dorm and travel - say 65k conservatively - takes probably 95k in my gross earnings. I’ll have to earn 400k to put her through an Ivy vs. zero for someone on a full ride. My sense is that there are a lot of declines because of this (not because of the cost, per se, but because of the feeling of being soaked) I KNOW there are declines because of this. My neighbor and several of his UNC-Chapel Hill honors program colleagues - many FA-ineligible - turned down Harvard and other Ivies b/c of this. There is a real perception - including among applying students - that anyone paying full ride has questionable judgement issues and is only contributing to the problem. /rant and ramble</p>
<p>I guess this is a good example of why Barnard is so great: it IS a small liberal arts college, is well-respected, and also does have the resources of Columbia (for research/lab experience, etc). Also, they do offer generous financial aid, which we did qualify for. We also had to pay a good bit out of pocket, however, but we felt it was well worth it.</p>
<p>I applied for aid at Columbia but they said my family was outside of the margin. Most of our EFC is tied to the value of our business. How would I go about asking Columbia for money?</p>
<p>If the EFC, however that was calculated in your case, came in max, then it’s pretty much over. The Ivies stopped giving merit aid several years ago. Strictly financial need now.</p>
<p>There are a very few outside scholarships you can look in to, but don’t expect much, if anything.</p>
<p>Who knows, the D may look into Barnard, also, although she has not thus far been keen on looking at all-women schools, this despite the encouragement of her advisors.</p>
<p>Jimkingwood, my D NEVER considered women’s colleges at all. Then she “discovered” Barnard and was immediately attracted to the challenging academics, great advising and smaller classes as well as the affiliation with Columbia. Fact is, most classes are NOT all female…and extracurricular activities are University-wide, so guys are included. </p>
I don’t know if it makes a difference to you, but the tuition part of the cost should be tax deductible. Beyond that, I don’t really get why one would feel worse about the cost just because other students in the class are on full ride and paying nothing. If cost is an issue, I get that. But I actually view having students on full ride, who would not be able to attend otherwise, to be a positive. I know a number of my son’s friends are on financial aid - haven’t pried but I know at least one is on full ride - and they are all pretty terrific and impressive kids. My son’s experience is better for having them in his class. And, honestly, I would feel a little weird taking money from the school that could be going to kids who would not be able to attend but for the financial aid. Then again, perhaps I have questionable judgment. :)</p>
<p>@nynyparent - Can you say more about tuition being tax deductible? The federal tuition tax credits/deductions I’m aware of (American Opportunity Credit, Lifetime Learning Credit, and the tuition and fees deduction that expired last year) are subject to income limits and I would assume that most or all families that Columbia views as being able to pay the full cost won’t qualify for these tax breaks. </p>
<p>There may be others I’m not aware of though and if so it would be great to learn about them.</p>
<p>That is an issue with ED: you cannot compare offers as well. We are in the same situation. Son got a number of great merit offers EA, but was tied to his ED school due to the signed ED contract. In our case, not an issue, because the school was his clear first choice regardless of the offers. We had determined we would pay what the school would cost knowing well that he was highly likely to get merit offers. And he did. </p>
<p>But it is something to consider. Say a student gets half cost award for a college. Is Columbia, or any other name college worth the $250K+? So a student goes to Tulane, U Denver, a SUNY, Fordham, and gets a check for $125K for graduation instead of the parents paying it to the college, think of what could be done with that money!</p>
<p>@bluewater2015, maybe I’m wrong - I’m not an accountant. But I know I’ve given the tuition number to my tax preparer each year (because they ask for it), and I’ve seen it entered on the tax forms, so I thought I was getting some kind of deduction for it. As I said, I could be mistaken.</p>
@nynyparent I agree with you generally - my D has numerous very close friends at her boarding school attending on a full ride, we bring some of them to our home on breaks and holidays. We pay the full 43k / year. The other students’ FA comes out of the endowment. But the Ivy gap - 65K vs. zero for a large %-age of students - is just too big. We’re just not into that. BTW, she was also offered admittance to a top flagship school, but she read that the in-state tuition is 8k and OOS 33k and, on top of that, the school uses the higher payers’ tuition to pay for their FA. It explicitly says so in the literature. She flat-out refuses to consider paying it. Like I said, some of this falls into the heading of “taking a soaking”.