<p>" 'cause I think Michigan has about double the percentage of Pell grant recipients that UVA does, though I think it’s possible they may catch up."</p>
<p>now if only michigan could get Detroit to be a seperate jurisdiction, and get one of its suburban counties to be the wealthiest in the USA.</p>
<p>Geez, you don’t live in Virginia, do you?</p>
<p>Just to let you know, ive had some fairly unpleasant interactions with the UVA adcon who posts here (about TJ and the role of class rank in admissions at UVA) but I have not heard IRL that they are trying to avoid Pell Grant kids, and given what I know of the demographics of their applicant pool, I would not be particularly suprised if they have a low percent of Pell kids accepted without any particular discrimination against them (or even with discrimination FOR them).</p>
<p>They pointed out that Dartmouth include research cost as part of the undergraduate student Tuition while infact it is just a reporting tactics. </p>
<p>You need to replace the research cost with the cost of Financial Aid to match the Tuition charged.</p>
<p>According to the article the academic cost is less than the Tuition charged by the college and even that reported academic cost is not the actual amount spent on student education.</p>
<p>"They pointed out that Dartmouth include research cost as part of the undergraduate student Tuition while infact it is just a reporting tactics. "</p>
<p>the UNFUNDED research cost - that not paid for by grants. Do you really think that if they had no undergrad English dept, they would have english profs spending time on research? </p>
<p>Who is going to pay for that research? They COULD pay for that research out of their endowment money which now goes towards FA - but seeing as the main purpose for the institution of that research is to maintain their reputation, and to retain the faculty (the best of whom do NOT want to spend all their time teaching undergrads, and zero doing research) in order to attract the full pays, why would they do that?</p>
<p>I mean why BE an Ivy hope if the intellectual atmosphere created by a faculty on the cutting edge of research is NOT something you consider a valuable part of undergrad education? I dont get it. Thats what the ivies (and some of their competitors) are all about. Thats what they sell. If you want an undergrad education taught be profs who are not doing research (and BTW where those vaunted undergrad research opportunities dont exist) there are loads of other places to get it, IIUC.</p>
<p>There is some information that may be of interest to this discussion.</p>
<p>UC Berkeley offers some freshman applicants admission in the [spring[/url</a>] rather than the fall. Such students can spend the fall either at a community college or at Berkeley at something called [url=<a href=“http://extension.berkeley.edu/fpf/]Fall”>http://extension.berkeley.edu/fpf/]Fall</a> Program for Freshmen<a href=“FPF”>/url</a>.</p>
<p>Since “FPF is self-supporting” (according to [this</a> web page](<a href=“http://extension.berkeley.edu/fpf/fees.html]this”>http://extension.berkeley.edu/fpf/fees.html)), that would mean that, including administrative costs and campus services like libraries and such, the cost to teach freshman level non-lab non-computer-science courses is closer to in-state fees than it is to out-of-state fees and tuition.</p>
<p>However, lab, computer science (with programming), and upper level courses are likely to cost more to teach.</p>
<p>Of course, a spring admit looking to save money may choose to attend community college in the fall, to get a larger selection of courses at a lower cost to the student.</p>
<p>This is a silly comment. Money is fungible. Wherever they “say” they get this money or that money from is not relevent. they couldn’t “get” this money from that area to use for this or that if they didn’t have that money to use for the other. Money is fungible.</p>
<p>well first of all Poetgirl, my comment assumed that money WAS fungible, just as you say - but the point was that non grant funded research doesnt really exist on its own - its there to make the school a certain kind of instructional institution.</p>
<p>Second, of course, money at non profits is NOT always fungible. Have you ever sat on a board of a non profit? I was once on the board of a synagogue - we borrowed from the building fund to pay general expenses - theoretically the donors to the building fund could have sued us for that - fortunately we managed to repay the building fund before that happened. If someone donates money to a fund with a specified purpose, the board diverts it to another purpose at considerable risk.</p>
<p>Who’s denying the importance of research at the top universities but the more important fact is that the research need to be funded because it pays for most of the post graduate students expenditures and should not be part of undergraduate tuitions.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that elite institutes are not supposed to include research funding as part of the undergraduate expenditures. We are talking about National Research Universities and not Liberal Arts Colleges.</p>
<p>I support research at all level and so still donate to Stanford Institute of Medical Research high school summer intern program even though DD didn’t go there. I also donate to MIT parent alumni and mark the fund for UROP.</p>
<p>I’ll be really disapointed if MIT also use part of $40000 tuition towards research. I can live with the fact that part of the $40000 tuition is used to pay for financial aid but is used to fund research at a research university is beyond me.</p>
<p>“Who’s denying the importance of research at the top universities but the more important fact is that the research need to be funded because it pays for most of the post graduate students expenditures and should not be part of undergraduate tuitions.”</p>
<p>in some fields there are grants to pay for it, and in others not so much. If certain fields have little or no grant funding, what do you Dartmouth to do? If you dont think its worth paying for, they can simply choose not to do it. I suspect you wouldnt be willing to pay 50k for them if they were that kind of institution though. To deliver the product you want, they need to incur costs ABOVE what you pay. Which means you are not subsidizing someone elses tuition.</p>
<p>If I want to buy a car, and it costs 30,000 without whiz bang new safety features, and 40,000 with them - and Ford charges me 35,000 dollars - which they can afford cause they have an endowment fund for safety features lets say - I am NOT paying money that goes towards any discount they offer anyone else - no matter how loudly I proclaim that I should be given the safety features for free.</p>
<p>"Thirteen percent of MIT’s endowed funds are restricted specifically for undergraduate financial aid, making it possible for MIT to provide need-based scholarships to 60% of its undergraduates from all income levels. "</p>
<p>POIH, why do you think endowment fund donations are less restrictive than research fund donations?</p>
<p>But, I’m sure you know more than anybody else does about finance, as always. Carry on. "</p>
<p>Well Im glad you are sure I know that, because I dont, and havent said that. When you were on the board of a non profit, did your non profit have restricted funds? Cause your comment, in a non profit context, that money is fungible leads me to believe you have never dealt with restricted funds. My experience is that its an important issue in non profit and govt accounting, and makes accounting in those areas different from conventional financial accounting.</p>
<p>I would love to have someone with more knowledge in this area comment on it. I can only speak from what I DO know.</p>
<p>Whatever way you may slice it, full paying students bridge the gap between institute cost to provide education, its revenue and subsidizing other students cost by providing financial aid.</p>
<p>If institute is spending same amount of money towards each student’s education and charging different amount of tuition then the only conclusion is that the student paying full amount is subsidizing students on financial aid unless the cost of providing financial aid exceed the cost of total tuition collected. Which is not the case even with Harvard.</p>
<p>"Whatever way you may slice it, full paying students bridge the gap between institute cost to provide education, its revenue and subsidizing other students cost by providing financial aid. "</p>
<p>Despite the FA money coming from restricted donor funds?</p>
<p>"If institute is spending same amount of money towards each student’s education and charging different amount of tuition then the only conclusion is that the student paying full amount is subsidizing students on financial aid unless the cost of providing financial aid exceed the cost of total tuition collected. Which is not the case even with Harvard. "</p>
<p>or that donors are subsidizing financial aid.</p>
<p>Note that this is not that much different from the UC Berkeley Fall Program for Freshmen costs, which are supposedly self-sustaining (see [post</a> 45 of this thread](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12380548-post45.html]post”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12380548-post45.html)). Courses offered are freshmen level non-lab, non-computer-science courses – i.e. the least expensive courses to teach and and those likely to be most similar in cost to teach to high school courses. So this not too surprising.</p>
<p>But some private K-12 schools charge as more than $30,000 per student per year in tuition.</p>