Why are our universities world renowned but our high school system is not?

If you’re in China and you want to work in the US, it’s a hell of a lot easier to do so if you go to college in the US than if you go to college in China.

We do a better job of educating minorities than any other country, so I’m not really sure what you’re talking about. Look at PISA exams. US Hispanics score better than the population of any Latin American country. There were no African countries measured but African Americans would likely do better than any if any were measured, and they do better than most Latin American countries. White Americans scored better than any country other than South Korea and Finland. Asian Americans scored better than anyone except the city of Shanghai.

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Unlike many countries, US students are not tracked into college bound/other high schools. All schools attempt to offer an education to all students regardless of academic abilities and interests. Look at a given country and see what happens to six year olds. How many are in a HS that potentially prepares them to attend a four year college? In the US any HS freshman could potentially take the courses needed to get into college. In some countries they have been sorted into college prep and technical schools- or not even get to attend HS. Do all rural Chinese attend a HS that offers courses that satisfy requirements to get into a college? We see only the top echelons of foreign students here in the US. What percentage of 18 year olds in a given country will attend a university/college equivalent to a US one? So many variables. Factor in the poverty rates as well. An inner city Chicago student has many obstacles a rural Illinois student likely does not face. Add in all of the various special needs education students and budgets.

Another factor in HS education is its purpose. Each country offers an education that fits its culture. I personally like that students in the US usually get a chance to participate in so much variety in and out of the classroom. Music, art, sports and other areas that are not in the “academic” lists. A much more well rounded childhood than some may have. Exposure to many different cultures and socioeconomic circumstances, religions than are often found in other countries.

How terrible is American society really? Still so many come from other countries for a better life for their families, including well educated people. How well does anyone on this forum know what life is like for the average person elsewhere? Consider India and China. Do they do a better job with ALL of their children? Does it matter more or less where you live within those countries than anywhere in the US?

@xiggi‌ First of all, no one is playing the poor card. When we have millions of illegal immigrants that come to the country that do not speak English, and are still entitled to a free public education, we place an undue burden on our education system. Taxpayer money ceases to go to bettering the education of our students and potentially making the public Univeristy schools, cheaper, and instead goes to sustaining programs that help for example teach English to these kids. I very familiar with how the public school system works, and the amount of money and resources allotted to ESL kids and to programs that give these kids resources, is almost unparalleled. English is not my first language, but I was lucky to have parents that encouraged me to begin reading at an early age and taught me two languages at once. And I understand many children are not priveleged with this. I can only speak for the state I live in, but our state definitely does more than enough the promote a better education for minorities and schools in minority neighborhoods. For example, all of the district funding for public schools is allotted to low performing schools. My school is one of the best public schools in the city (and one of the most diverse), and we practically get no funding. Our parent organizations do more for us than the district. However, all the rest of the low performing schools have AstroTurf football fields that cost millions of dollars to install, have iPad programs for their students, have smaller class sizes, and actually get to have whiteboards instead of chalkboards in their room while my school is asking parents to donate paper for printing. In addition public univeristy EOP programs, affirmative action (or whatever politically correct name you hVe for it), and other programs are definitely in place for minority communities. Thus I would hardly say our country is neglecting minority communities. A large part of the problem is the communities that children are being raised in. If their is a culture where dropping out of school, joining gangs (i am talking about all races and nationalities here), and generally having unsupportive parents, then it should not be a mystery why the education system is not working for many people.

Once again, it is incorrect to compare the United States to Luxembourg or any homogenous country. Luxembourg has a significantly smaller population to account for, and let’s not forget about the average income there compared to the average income here. Let’s not forget that they do not have a rapidly increasing population fueled by the influx of immigrants. However, if you do want to look to Europe, another reason why the public education system is very successful there is because of the vocational education options. Students who do not wish to partake or are not equipped for a traditional education go down the vocational path starting with middle school. Instead of failing out of school, they have a pathway where they can make a very sustainable and dare I say very good salary.

Our policies with Native Americans have been abysmal. They have been so underwhelmingly represent in politics and in the US population, that their plight often remains ignored. More often than not, they do not go to regular public schools and instead go to the schools on their reservation. It is very easy to say the United States failed minorities because make no mistake about it, we did for the majority of our countries history. But now, at the risk of being called a racist, I think some minority communities are failing themselves. Not even 100 years ago, the Asians were considered at the very bottom of the society, a step above the Jews and the African Americans. They were basically send to live in small minority communities (now known as Chinatown) and faced almost unimaginable discrimination. The Japanese population were even rounded up in internment camps. However, despite that, the Asian community managed to prevail (im speaking in general here) despite facing similar amounts of discrimination. We’re they disadvantaged for being Asian? Yes. Was it harder for them because they weren’t WASPS? Yes. And now that I mentioned the Jews, they were the lowest of the low along with black people in terms of minority subjugation. The KKK targeted Jews and blacks equally. Jews experienced rampant segregation in the South. FDR the apparent champion of civil rights was one of the most anti Semetic presidents of our time. But look at the Jewish community now. Change will not happen until certain minority communities admit that yes the United States isn’t perfect and we will continue fighting until it is better and more fair. But at the same time, they will need to evolve and that starts with education.

The SKorean public school system gets undeserved praise. 75% of Korean students get supplemental hagwon cramming/tutoring on their parents’ dime.

I don’t think the US K-12 system is all that spectacular, but I also don’t think most other countries’ K-12 (or equivalent) systems are all that spectacular, either.

And yes, we’ve been pointed to international test performance, but it isn’t an apples-to-apples comparison—the sample of students who take those tests each year differs from country to country. Really, nobody’s come up with a good way to draw direct comparisons between systems.

My child had a hard time in catching up English several years before Kindergaten. Two years before he started the elementary school, we tried whatever we could in order to give him as much exposure in spoken English (not written English) as possible. I still remembered that after a month or two he had been in a preschool (only 2 days a week, 3 hours on that day), the teacher told us "I think he seems to start understanding what I and other kids are saying.) In those few years, we were kind of in a “urgent remedy” mode in order to get him ready for school.

At one time, we hired more than a half of a family (3 out of 5 family members) whose native language is English to “talk and listen” to our kid. At another time, we hired one from one family and another one from another family because both could not give us many hours.

We hunt for many audio tapes (Wee Sing, Hank the Cowdog, etc.) and video tapes (almost all Thomas the Tank Engine, all most all the Disney’s including the short ones like Winnie the Pooh, the land before time, etc.)

Later, after he had acquired the spiken English, we started to pay attention to his reading – We bought a lot of age appropriate children books. We hired an old lady in our neighborhood (who happens to be very religious and donated the “tuition” to her church) to read books to him (I only remember they together read “The Chronicle of Narnia”.)

Fast forward to his high school years, he was doing great in English related tests or subjects. (e.g., PSAT and SAT and AP English and Literature.)

In China and many East Asian countries, admissions is not determined by courses one takes in HS.

Rather, it’s determined solely by how well one does on the national college entrance exam.

In some European countries, admissions to college is determined by scores obtained in some form of examination whether it’s the Matura in Central European countries or A-Levels in the UK.

While HS coursework can help one prepare for such exams, there’s also an expectation students spend time preparing for them outside the HS classroom/assigned work.

^ I have been through that admission system. While I was doing great (among the top 100 scorers in the “science and engineering” category - assuming that all students chose their top choice exactly the same - a ridiculous thing to do), I do not want my kid to “suffer” the same.

My parents also went through that system. Dad was also a top scorer and was admitted to the top uni, but attended #2 uni because the former only offered full tuition whereas the latter offered room & board, book fees, and more.

I had a taste of it when I took my urban public magnet HS entrance exam. However, it was much shorter in length and covered nowhere near the breadth or depth the national college entrance exam my parents took covered. Then again, HS exams are taken when one’s in 8th grade at 11-14 whereas college entrance examinations are usually taken by HS seniors around age 16 and up.

Your father and I must have been from a different country.

In my case, there were no such things like free tuitions, free room and boards. There was no “scholarship” (like free tuition or free room
and board) at the college level. what we had (at that time) was this: The tuition for top colleges (usually called "National XYZ University) is much cheaper than the lower ranked college (typically private colleges or public colleges not in a large city.) The tuition at a top college there was very cheap (as compared to tuition here – even after the adjustment of different COL standards.) as far as I can remember.

I did the same for their graduate school admission too. But it was not a national test. Each graduate school administrated its own entrance exam test. If you get into a graduate school, you do not pay tuition and you receive a limited amount of stipend from the government, but if you also work as an RA, your stipend is then doubled.

In my UG graduating class, the best students came to US for graduate study after college, without “wasting time” in studying at a graduate school there. The best students usually went to the top graduate schools like Stanford, Caltech, and MIT and so on. (I was not a top student in my class in college - so I only attended a UC - and only after having finished the graduate school there first - I actually did not plan to come to US at first but changed my mind many (6?) years after college. See how “prestigious whore” we were – always trying to get into a better named college?! LOL.)

The UG admission tends to be a bigger deal than the graduate school admission, for most students, for some unknown reason.

Every admission decision is based on the scores of written tests. There is no subjective criteria like ECs. There is no interview either. At least this was the case in my time (many decades ago.)

All the European countries, including Norway, deal with diverse immigrant populations.

The mass of US universities are acceptable to foreign students because they teach in English, they provide decent education (without being too difficult), and there is scope for fun.

Other English-speaking western countries have the same advantages; UK, Australia, New Zealand. Australia hosts a far higher number of foreign university students, relative to its own population, than does the US.

Because our K-12 system has been ruined by teachers unions. If the NEA ever got its claws into our universities, watch out.

How do we rank K-12 education? We do it by testing. We don’t do it by number of students getting Nobel prize, number of Rhode scholars, winning top math/science/writing competitions. I for one do not think standarized testing is a good measure of how good k-12 education is.

When I first came to the US at the age of 12, I could do math 2 levels ahead of my classmates and I could do simple math faster than most people (including my math teacher). It all came from years of memorization, but what I lagged behind was critical thinking and problem solving ability. I was taught under the kind of educational system to never question my teachers, and in essence never to think for myself, whereas my American classmates constantly challenged our teachers, they were asking my teachers “why” in every class whenever they disagreed.

Our universities maybe renowned because the students are the by-products of our not so renowned high school system.

I don’t think the US K-12 system is universally “horrible”. My own kids went to very good schools and others do too. I think that there is a wide range of schools, some are horrible, some mediocre and some good or very good. Schools tend to be better where the students come in with the advantage of having homes where there is adequate nutrition, medical care and parents who are able to provide learning opportunities. I think this is a complicated issue.

When we are talking about renowned, I assume we are not talking about K-12 education as a whole or overall quality of college education because we do have some renowned colleges in the US, but not every college in the US is renowned, same with our high schools.

I’m sure choice may be a factor, but it’s not the only one. Colleges can kick students out who are not performing, which public high schools can’t do - they have to keep trying to educate students until they are 19 years old. (Obviously, you can be expelled from high school, but that is behavior related, not grade related).

The USA HS system and the whole k -12 system is a very sad story, it is in a shameful condition, period. ALL immigrants into the USA are in shock to discover the low level of the program, incompetency level of teaching and many are compensated the shorcomings in one way or another. I talked to several immigrants from Africa (out of all places, underdeveloped country) and they have the same opinion… In additon, the American k -12 is one of the most expensive per student in a world (if not the most expensive). The only thing that it may be known for is that it is the huge waste of money and time that comes nowhere close to preparing kids for productive life.

I don’t think teacher unions have ruined American education, anymore than I think unions have ruined the police officer or firefighting profession. I do however think corporations angling to get their products into districts, which then require expensive " upgrades", are not helping, any more than administrators and board members who then profit by their districts buying those products are helping.
Btw.
Africa, is actually a continent, which consists of 58 states, territories or countries.
How many who espouse the waste & mediocrity of American life are living in the US?
I expect you are planning to move elsewhere.
But I’m curious, where are you moving to?

I live in the US and am proud to live in a system that allows criticism. I just wish that the political system could respond to criticism. I suspect we will need another revolution to get the power back to the citizens and out of corporate hands.

Do you have proof of that?