<p>I think it’s because being good at humanities can be quite subjective. There are honestly people who do no think that Shakespeare has good writing. Meanwhile with math it’s right or wrong.</p>
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<p>Math becomes more and more abstract and creative at higher levels, and those are the only levels worth admiring anyway.</p>
<p>And dude, subjective =/= arbitrary. It’s not just “everyone has a personal opinion, and they are all equally valid!” nonsense. </p>
<p>Anyway, solution: only admire people who are good at both!</p>
<p>I don’t think so. One of my friends is a very analytical person who is well informed with the humanities and is good at formal writing/speaking. Whilst she’s good at the sciences it’s not her thing, and she seems smart to our peers and adults. I think that when somebody has good information and can use language in a convincing manner, they seem very intelligent.</p>
<p>In my opinion, the perception of those with advanced proficiency (relative to the rest of the student body) in science/math being more ‘intelligent’ than those with advanced proficiency in the humanities stems from the limitations that exist in any level of school. Even in high school, the uppermost tier of education within any given school district, students remain relatively isolated from the rest of the world. </p>
<p>This is where the factor of achievement enters the equation. How does one measure any writer’s skill level? By how many works the author has published. Now, how many high school students do you know of, who are published authors? On the other hand, how many high school students do you know, who have entered some kind of professional science/math contest and won national or statewide recognition? Obviously, your answers will indicate that you’ve seen much more of the latter. Thus, you feel that the science students and math students have achieved much more outside of the school, and have therefore proven themselves as more intelligent outside of the confines of the school, even though there are many more chances for a science/math student to win recognition during high school than there are for humanities students, making this comparison unfair.</p>
<p>Also, science and math, for the most part, are applied within a realm of ‘knowns’. You know that if a student recieved a 100% on a science or math test, that they obviously know all the facts, and while you may think a student who recieved a 100% on an English essay was merely ‘lucky’ or favored by the teacher, as english and history are almost entirely subjective, the type of doubt as to a person’s skill versus a person’s luck never exists when considering an adept science/math student, because you know that their answers were the right ones.</p>
<p>Finally, it just seems that math and science are considered more ‘academically-oriented’ to high school students, as the two are rarely applied outside of the classroom, while english and history are present throughout all dialogue. Therefore, while one might consider that everyone speaks fluent english and knows historical facts, it would seem harder for a person to consider that an advanced science/math student simply studies more, or works harder for a good grade, in the language of math or science, which are almost certainly not mainstream.</p>
<p>And of course, I would like to note the difference between intelligence and knowledge. In my experience, people tend to link the former with science/math, the latter with english/history. However, there is no clear distinction between which aspect is linked with which subject, as both aspects apply to an extent to both subjects. However, if the distinction must be made, I would link intelligence to the humanities and knowledge with science/math, as during high school, science and math are solely memorization of formulae/procedure/etc., while humanities require creativity and inuition, to a frther extent than science and math.</p>
<p>Tom Clancy is the best author ever. That is all.</p>
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<p>I had to read this like 5 times to make sure this wasn’t a hallucination.</p>
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<p>A larger problem is that essay grading is generally based on expectations, and expectations are generally pretty low. A 100 on an essay often doesn’t indicate mastery of writing as much as simply following directions and perhaps applying the proper polish.</p>
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<p>As often as my friends discussed Shakespeare’s mastery of iambic pentameter or Bismarck’s sheer political pwnage, I’m somewhat skeptical of this point.</p>
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<p>You used five commas in this sentence. I’m really not sure what you’re trying to say.</p>
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<p>High school history classes require three skills: raw memorization, the ability to sort knowledge, and the ability to simply communicate that knowledge. English classes require three skills: the ability to understand prose, the ability to interpret literary devices, and the ability to communicate that knowledge. Science classes require three skills: raw memorization, sorting of information, and the ability to apply mathematical models. Math requires three skills: memorization of problem solving algorithms, ability to recognize when to use particular algorithms, and the ability to adapt an algorithm to a new case.</p>
<p>The problem with labeling the subjects is that at the High School level, knowledge can often make up for lack of intuition and vise versa. I would say that history and science tend to lean toward the knowledge side. English should require intuition, but depending on the teacher it’s often possible to get by with reciting what they’ve taught. Math also generally requires intuition, but tests often tend to be trivial.</p>
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Why? It conforms fairly well with the cardinal rule of literature; namely, that Tom Clancy is amazing.</p>
<p>In case anyone is wondering, I’ve stopped taking this thread seriously.</p>
<p>^no imagination, you can just stop posting now o_O</p>
<p>“I had to read this like 5 times to make sure this wasn’t a hallucination.”</p>
<p>-Pray tell, then, how you would go about measuring an author’s skill level, in the real world?</p>
<p>“A larger problem is that essay grading is generally based on expectations, and expectations are generally pretty low. A 100 on an essay often doesn’t indicate mastery of writing as much as simply following directions and perhaps applying the proper polish.”</p>
<p>-You essentially paraphrased what I said, that essay grading is subjective, and what can be considered ‘following directions’ and ‘proper polish’ are subject to the teacher’s interpretation, thereby placing the grade at the mercy of the teacher.</p>
<p>“As often as my friends discussed Shakespeare’s mastery of iambic pentameter or Bismarck’s sheer political pwnage, I’m somewhat skeptical of this point.”</p>
<p>-First off, allow me to be as bold as to ask you on what grounds you consider yourself and your friends examples relatable to by most high school students. And even if you were representative of high school students, in general, iambic pentameter and political affairs are merely two specific examples of aspects of their respective subjects not broached in daily conversation, though the latter is rather common throughout my high school, and the two represent a trivial subset of the humanities subject, and show the detriment of shortsightedness in your consideration. Do we not utilize grammar and diction in conversation, as well as syntax and the like? Do we not cite historical events in determining action at any given time? These are much more applicable to life, and education, than a mere mention of iambic pentameter and “political pwnage”.</p>
<p>“You used five commas in this sentence. I’m really not sure what you’re trying to say.”</p>
<p>-Very well, I do not blame myself for your inability to comprehend a sentence comprised of more than a single subject, verb, and object. To rephrase, I was merely pointing out that though english and history are taken for granted in everyday life, math and science are not, and are therefore considered more ‘alien’ to students.</p>
<p>“High school history classes require three skills: raw memorization, the ability to sort knowledge, and the ability to simply communicate that knowledge.”</p>
<p>-While I agree for the most part regarding the three skills essential to success in high school history classes, I would argue that interpretation is integral to history class. What is a student who simply memorizes facts, yet can not derive the meaning of those facts, therefore failing to answer correctly the majority of the questions on any exam? DBQ’s, free-response essays, and even multiple choice tests, as well as the majority of classwork, requires interpretation and intuition.</p>
<p>“English classes require three skills: the ability to understand prose, the ability to interpret literary devices, and the ability to communicate that knowledge.”</p>
<p>-How is an essay written? One certainly does not create an original piece of work by copying something they learned. There is a name for that: plagiarism. Obviously, there is a need for literary comprehension, and correct interpretation of literary devices, and even the last ability you mentioned. However, there is evidently a great degree of creativity necessary for crafting an essay, or any writing piece. Creativity exists as the method, by which givens are originally arranged, and the essence, in that the content of any writing piece is created by your own mind.</p>
<p>“Science classes require three skills: raw memorization, sorting of information, and the ability to apply mathematical models. Math requires three skills: memorization of problem solving algorithms, ability to recognize when to use particular algorithms, and the ability to adapt an algorithm to a new case.”</p>
<p>-I couldn’t have stated it better myself. Like you stated, raw memorization is key to both of these subjects. In order to apply mathematical models, one needs to have learned the models prior to application. Therefore, you support my argument that knowledge is more important to math and science than it is to the other two subjects. And thus, your last paragraph is contradicted:</p>
<p>“The problem with labeling the subjects is that at the High School level, knowledge can often make up for lack of intuition and vise versa. I would say that history and science tend to lean toward the knowledge side. English should require intuition, but depending on the teacher it’s often possible to get by with reciting what they’ve taught. Math also generally requires intuition, but tests often tend to be trivial.”</p>
<p>-I would like to end on the note that though one can write a wonderful essay using very few large words and metrical structures, as the heart of an essay lies within its content, not the polish, one can not find the area of a triangle if one does not know the formula for finding it, no matter how intuitive one is.</p>
<p>We are NOT dealing with high school level work in anyway shape or form.</p>
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Could’ve fooled me:
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<p>BTW, Tom Clancy wins this thread.</p>
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<p>That’s one of the central issues of the thread. But I think most people would agree that quantity of publications is a really ****ty metric.</p>
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<p>The point is that it doesn’t have to be a masterpiece, even by any subjective standards. To get 100% on a math test you have to get every question wrong. There can be a lot wrong with an A paper in English.</p>
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<p>Yeah, it was sarcasm.</p>
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<p>No… I don’t consider syntax or grammar during conversation. Most people adopt the vernacular of the people they grow up around, not the language taught in school. I don’t think about historical events when making daily decisions. I’m much more likely to make a quick calorie count, or check the price of something in my head.</p>
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<p>You should, however, blame yourself for writing a sentence that had no real meaning. Your sentence says something to the effect of “it would seem harder for a person to consider that an advanced science/math student simply studies more in the language of math or science.” There’s no point there.</p>
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<p>I don’t know, can you tell me the meaning of the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776? It’s not at all difficult to derive the meaning of that fact. It’s not especially hard to sort it either. The one thing special thing you have to do in a DBQ is figure out what side of an argument a person is on. So your grade has a small dependence on interpretation. Memorization is what gets you through though. You don’t have to do particularly well (6’s or so) on the essays to get a 5 on AP history tests.</p>
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<p>Surely it isn’t plagiarism to use a 5 paragraph essay structure. And if a teacher goes over a book during class, you’re not going to get docked for using the ideas they introduced.</p>
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<p>Saying it doesn’t make it true.</p>
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<p>I said raw memorization is key to all 4 subjects. That’s what makes high school work trivial.</p>
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<p>You didn’t refute what I said, you just took a section out of context and pretended the rest of what I wrote didn’t exist. Try again.</p>
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<p>One can also write an A essay using a bunch of large words to cover up the lack of content.</p>
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<p>Speak for yourself.</p>
<p>Quote - one can not find the area of a triangle if one does not know the formula for finding it, no matter how intuitive one is</p>
<p>Response - Speak for yourself.</p>
<p>LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO</p>
<p>Mary Faulkner wrote 904 books under 11 pseudonyms.
Is she the best author ever?</p>
<p>BTW, it’s been claimed that Tom Clancy once said he studied English because he “wasn’t smart enough to do physics.”</p>
<p>Albert Einstein became a Physicist only because he failed at History.</p>
<p>^^^^ I think thats the most quotes ive ever seen on a CC post</p>
<p>“That’s one of the central issues of the thread. But I think most people would agree that quantity of publications is a really ****ty metric.”</p>
<p>-If you won’t provide a standard, why would you attack someone else’s? (keep in mind that this standard is subjective)</p>
<p>“The point is that it doesn’t have to be a masterpiece, even by any subjective standards. To get 100% on a math test you have to get every question wrong. There can be a lot wrong with an A paper in English.”</p>
<p>-An essay obviously has to be a masterpiece, at least in the teacher’s eyes, to recieve a 100%. Now, why it is seen as a masterpiece, whether due to strict adherence to the rubric or simple magnificence, remains subject to the circumstances, but in the end, essay grading is wholly subjective, no matter how you look at it. The math example makes absolutely no sense, and as for the final part, that is exactly what I have been saying. A 100% on a math test means you answered every question correctly, and therefore know the subject matter. A 100% on a paper indicates that someone, namely your teacher, liked it, even though other students might not be impressed by it. This answers the OP’s question.</p>
<p>“Yeah, it was sarcasm.”</p>
<p>-A perfectly acceptable response, considering you could not come up with a viable defense for your mistaken anecdote. There was simply no alternative.</p>
<p>“No… I don’t consider syntax or grammar during conversation. Most people adopt the vernacular of the people they grow up around, not the language taught in school. I don’t think about historical events when making daily decisions. I’m much more likely to make a quick calorie count, or check the price of something in my head.”</p>
<p>-Are you being serious? One obviously does not CONSCIOUSLY consider what words would be appropriate for a certain meaning. That is not to say that a process, several processes, in fact, are undertaken in the subconscious/unconscious portions of a mind, that influence one’s diction and syntax. This underlying structure applies to others when considering a person’s intelligence, thus creating a correlation. And to be sure, you may apply simple arithmetics occasionally, but this conscious application does not outweigh the complexities of subconscious relation of ideas and thoughts to english and history.</p>
<p>“You should, however, blame yourself for writing a sentence that had no real meaning. Your sentence says something to the effect of “it would seem harder for a person to consider that an advanced science/math student simply studies more in the language of math or science.” There’s no point there.”</p>
<p>-My point, as you continue to fail to comprehend, and as I have already paraphrased, is that whilst english and history are considered natural to students, math and science are not, and therefore students are more peers in the former two than in the latter two, creating a gap between those adept in the latter and those inept, creating the impression that math/science advanced students are ‘smarter’ than others.</p>
<p>“I don’t know, can you tell me the meaning of the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776? It’s not at all difficult to derive the meaning of that fact. It’s not especially hard to sort it either. The one thing special thing you have to do in a DBQ is figure out what side of an argument a person is on. So your grade has a small dependence on interpretation. Memorization is what gets you through though. You don’t have to do particularly well (6’s or so) on the essays to get a 5 on AP history tests.”</p>
<p>-Once again, you provide a shortsighted example. A more appropriate example would be: What did the signers of the Declaration of Independence hope to achieve, in 1776? Whereas your example is so elementary as to not require education past the second grade, my example provides a more realistic idea of a question that could be given, on any high school exam. I honestly do not know if you have answered a DBQ, or scored decently on one, but your approach seems to be severely flawed, as you need to know WHAT each document is suggesting, as well as the minute factor of side, both being interpretative and essential.</p>
<p>“Surely it isn’t plagiarism to use a 5 paragraph essay structure. And if a teacher goes over a book during class, you’re not going to get docked for using the ideas they introduced.”</p>
<p>-As you stated before, english is essentially interpretation, disregarding minute factors such as structure, which I admit, is rather limited in terms of interpretive meaning.</p>
<p>“Saying it doesn’t make it true.”</p>
<p>-I agree. However, I have not explicated otherwise, and this is wholly irrelevant to the subject at hand. A matter for another time, perhaps.</p>
<p>“I said raw memorization is key to all 4 subjects. That’s what makes high school work trivial.”</p>
<p>-But to what extent? Whereas a precedent in history could be predicted with logic, you can not simply create formulae through the same procedure, unless you are a genius. Rather, formulae for both science and math are derived from trial and error, and in the classroom, are simply memorized.</p>
<p>“You didn’t refute what I said, you just took a section out of context and pretended the rest of what I wrote didn’t exist. Try again.”</p>
<p>-Hypocrisy much? You did the exact same thing to my response, which was provided in the context of an entire paragraph, but which you divided, and therefore split the meaning of, nonetheless. Try again? Only this time, be sure to look for something you do not do yourself.</p>
<p>“One can also write an A essay using a bunch of large words to cover up the lack of content.”</p>
<p>-Is this an attempt at satire? A simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer will suffice. And seeing as a rubric, as you would blame for the grade of any essay, only mentions vocabulary in one of the six factors, I do not see how a 100% in 1/6th of the total grade would overshadow and account for an utter lack of content, which is viewed with all five of the other criteria in mind.</p>
<p>“Speak for yourself.”</p>
<p>-Once again, I provided a dumbed-down example to drive my point, and once again, you respond accordingly, how? Not by answering with a rebuttal, but rather attempting to mock my inconvenience for the sake of your understanding? As you have said, “Try again.”</p>
<p>"Mary Faulkner wrote 904 books under 11 pseudonyms.
Is she the best author ever?</p>
<p>-What’s to say she isn’t? Each individual has his or her individual criteria for judging and author, and you must admit that a book must have been accepted somewhere, by someone, to be published. I would also like to note that I specifically used the term published, not written. I myself have written many, many pieces, but am I published? No. Therefore, I do not consider myself a successful writer, in regards to the real world. However, I do consider myself a successful writer in high school, as my grade in english is relatively higher than others’.</p>
<p>You can quote people using quote tags. </p>
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<p>It’s (quote) texttext (/quote) </p>
<p>But with brackets instead of parentheses.</p>
<p>While I think this argument is getting a bit ridiculous… unless you’re just playing devil’s advocate or something… I just want to say:</p>
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<p>Funniest thing ever. Mind if I post this on my Facebook quotes?</p>