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You can get this at publics, too -- Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, UVA, UNC, UCSD, etc. Berkeley in particular is known for its hardcore academic environment.
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<p>I guess I didn't explain myself clearly. This thread is discussing "top" colleges, and why so many on this board strive to attend them, and ALL of the universities you mentioned would be considered top colleges. When I said State U I meant the typical ones, not the top tiers like you mentioned. You know, URI, UNH, etc. Or just any "lesser" college in general. I could have made the same statement with Michigan or any other top school.</p>
<p>In my humble opinion, what the Ivies have going for them is the PERCEPTION that they are the best schools. In reality, the QUALITY of an Ivy education is no different than that of other schools such as Kenyon, Carleton, Lehigh, Holy Cross, etc.</p>
<p>I've spoken with several Ivy grads who readily admit that they doubt that their education was superior to that of much lesser known schools. In fact, many said that their professors had impressive credentials but were ineffective teachers in the classroom. What they do say, however, is that it's the name on the diploma that mattered most to them.</p>
<p>Also, not to disappoint those who are in awe of the Ivies, but for every one investment banker that an Ivy produces, there are another seven or eight that are working side by side with grads of lesser known colleges.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I believe that students get caught up in the frenzy of the Ivy League as a result of being in wealthy high schools, or because there are a lot of parents who wish to live vicariously through their children, and mold them at a young age to be Ivy-bound.</p>
<p>Seriously, does college really have to be about the net financial result that you get after you graduate and get a good job? Doesn't it matter more that you went to a college that you genuinely wanted to go to and felt challenged at, no matter what name is stuck on it? I mean, if one's to believe the comments in this thread, one doesn't go to Ivies for an education, one goes to make connections and secure high-paying jobs.</p>
<p>But of course, I could be wrong. For me personally, though, I would rather go to a state university since people there would (due to the socio-economic demographics of people who attend state schools) not be as haughty or elitist, and for someone like me (who is upper middle income but could hardly be considered wealthy), I feel I'd fit in better. Plus, there's also the thing about not coming out of college with debt, a personal goal that I have set for myself.</p>
<p>Why You Want to Attend an Ivy League University:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>In most cases, it's CHEAPER than a state university (if you have financial need). All the Ivies are absolutely need-blind, and will cover 100% of your financial NEED (as an extreme example... Harvard has REDUCED TUITION ($10,000) for families making between $120,000- $180,000/ year.... just think about that for a second)</p></li>
<li><p>The caliber of peers and professors. Harvard/Columbia has each about 80 Nobel Laureates each... </p></li>
<li><p>The Prestige.</p></li>
</ol>
<hr>
<p>Some previously argued that in some cases the QUALITY of education at an Ivy League University does not differ from that offered at many state schools. To some extent, this is definitely true. However, what defines the QUALITY of education? Is the QUALITY of education not inherently dependent upon the caliber of your peers and your professors? Isn't learning a dynamic, interactive process between your classmates and your professors? And to that end, the Ivy League does tend to have the most knowledgable/experienced professors AND DEFINITELY has the MOST QUALIFIED student body as an aggregate.</p>
<p>Also, as for the advantages of being conferred an IVy League degree. For some it's the financial gains, and yes don't kid yourself, getting an Ivy League degree does open MANY MANY lucrative doors. Take a look on WallStreet. If any of you are familiar with Bulge Bracket firms for Investment Banks on Wall Street, these recruit exclusively at ~15 schools (including all 8 Ivies). They RARELY hire ANY analysts outside of these 15. The Ivy League degree is a certification of a students merit, ability, and potential. </p>
<p>Does going to an Ivy League GUARANTEE financial success and conversely, does NOT going GUARANTEE a life of destitute? Absolutely not. But like someone said before, your potential income and inherent value as an employee increases exponentially with an Ivy League degree, thus, so does your income.</p>
<p>(1) Looking at Ivies for financial reasons? Not really advantageous over many other good-quality schools. Most meet 100% of need.</p>
<p>(2) Nobel Laureates....but can they teach? If one were to do a "blind" experiment, whereby a group of students were taught by Harvard's professors for a semester, then Kenyon's professors the following semester, with the students not knowing which profs were from which schools, do you really believe that students would feel that there was a significant difference in the quality of teaching?</p>
<p>(3) Wall Street, Wall Street, Wall Street........This is the example that is always used when arguing that Ivies are better. The reality is this: 98% of all Ivy grads do not go to work on Wall Street. Once you get beyond Wall Street, the bright students from the Lehigh's, Colgate's, Kenyon's, Carleton's, etc. are doing the EXACT same jobs as 98% of the Ivy grads.</p>
<p>Again, the IVY thing is more PERCEPTION than reality.</p>
<p>^^then you are truly naive, anyone who makes poor choices in life can end up poor.</p>
<p>Anyways, you dont have to even limit it to undergrad all the top grad schools from law to medicine are ivy league schools...When people say things like "dont worry about going to a good undergrad just go to a good grad school" (which ive heard plenty of times) they are ofter referring to schools like Yale law school, Wharton MBA, and Harvard Med school. ALL IVIES. Of course I think truly great individuals will shine through anywhere. However ate to break it to you but, since people of epic intelligence strive to attend ivies, top employers from hospitals to top law firms and wall street will focus their recruiting efforts there. Apparently there's something valuable about earning that cache.</p>
<p>its funny b/c even when top firms post job offerings they all post this at the bottom </p>
<p>Required Education
- Bachelor degree at highly regarded institution</p>
<p>this is the harvard recruiting list, if you know wall street you know outside of the ivys and other top 15 school no one gets these opportunities. B/C this is a bad azz list (impossible w/out the backing of a top school) These kinds of opportunities is what makes a degree from a top college (ivys and top 15 in particular) so valuable.</p>
<p>OP, there is nothing wrong with people working to reach for the best in whatever they endeavour.
Now, whether or not HYP are best is another question.
Whether or not students aspiring to top schools are mainting a healthy view of life or not is yet another question.
All students should be healthily encouraged to reach for what they healthily deem to be "best," even it it be tiddleywinks.
Not knowing their individual or collective motives, the safest conclusion one may come to is this - a seemingly large group of individuals on CC have determined that HYP is the "best" and worthy of all effort. All things being equal, I applaud the good efforts and dedication of them all.</p>
<p>People are obsessed with top universities, because</p>
<p>Prestige/Exclusiveness -- The name on your degree opens many doors when you graduate. Additionally, you compete and form relationships with some of the smartest students in the world and hobnob with individuals from influential families -- especially when entering the real world where its not only what you know but who you know. The networking opportunities at top schools are unparalleled.</p>
<p>There are other reasons, but I would argue this is the most prevailing one.</p>
<p>They certainly are prestigious (perception), and because the Ivies cater to the wealthy, one does have a chance to hobnob with the rich and famous.
I'll grant you that.</p>
<p>But, academically, they are no better than the schools I mentioned in my previous posts. It's all perception, not reality.</p>
<p>The vast majority of Ivy grads end up doing the same things as the grads from Lehigh, Holy Cross, Colgate, Kenyon, etc. Granted, the Ivies have a few more on Wall Street, but that's about as far as it goes.</p>
<p>In my opinion, Ivies are way overrated and too many high schoolers waste their time in awe of them.</p>
<p>Certainly know it all has it right..unless you want to get a top job in some financially related field, IVY doesn't mean all that much in other fields, as long as you go to a school with a reasonable reputation and do well academically, the interview process and your social skills mean much more than what school name your diploma has across the top... </p>
<p>Of course, an IVY education will confer some instant prestige on you with most employers and you will certainly be at the top of the list for interviews but that will only help you out for 5 minutes, if you're socially retarded or don't come across as "sharp", you'll lose many jobs to motivated grads from many top 100 schools...</p>
<p>Yes the schools are better. How are they not better off academically? These top schools admit the most of the smartest students in the nation, recruit the best professors in the nation (and people exaggerate on this too... Most professors do teach WELL/at the top level at HYPSM... so blown out of proportions), and have the most money to give out for financial need and RESOURCES. A few more on Wall Street? How about dominance? </p>
<p>I agree the focus on the Ivies is overrated, but don't EVER SAY the level of education is the same as "Lehigh, Holy Cross, Colgate, Kenyon.." Are you kidding me?</p>
<p>Also, I will agree that the students at Lehigh, etc can match up to those at HYPSM. However, that's based on the students' own character, whether they can persevere, love learning, etc. THESE are the students that go to Wall Street, take on top positions, and lead the nation. When you take a look at the whole picture, however, HYPSM dominate. THIS is reality, NOT perception. </p>
<p>And I haven't even started on listing the prestige factor...</p>
<p>"Also, not to disappoint those who are in awe of the Ivies, but for every one investment banker that an Ivy produces, there are another seven or eight that are working side by side with grads of lesser known colleges."</p>
<p>This certainly was not the case in my and my friends BB IB analyst classes, which were close to 1:1 ratio of Ivy League to other schools. However, there were about 30 target schools total where I was and the other 22 non-Ivy were still considered pretty good schools, dropping down to the level of UVA, Georgetown, Bowdoin, Colgate, Hamilton, Haverford. </p>
<p>From my experience, strategy consulting firms have even a narrower range of acceptable schools, which is closer to ~ 15 total.</p>
<p>with all due respect, i noticed that you are at yale. with that said, i assume that you, and probably your parents, have been focused on ivy ever since you were a youngster. your frame of reference is ivy, ivy, ivy. anything other than ivy means "second class." am i correct?</p>
<p>unfortunately, there are many who are brainwashed (no disrespect meant) into believing exactly what you said in your post. i know that you sincerely believe in what you said in your post, but again, it's a line of thinking that is perception, not reality.</p>
<p>again, i've spoken with many ivy grads who wholeheartedly agree with my position. the one commonality among those ivy grads is that they enjoy the name of the college on their diploma.</p>
<p>I have to go back again to what I said..it depends on what your intended field is...I had a chance to go to Columbia this Spring and get my "Columbia" diploma but I chose NYU because I want to study Film and Writing, so in many cases, a non-ivy education will be valued just as much as an IVY, in certain industries.</p>
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I have to go back again to what I said..it depends on what your intended field is...I had a chance to go to Columbia this Spring and get my "Columbia" diploma but I chose NYU because I want to study Film and Writing, so in many cases, a non-ivy education will be valued just as much as an IVY, in certain industries.
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<p>But NYU is probably a BETTER film school than Columbia. An Ivy league school isn't always better, depending on the field. Besides, this thread is about discussing top schools, not just Ivy league schools, and in the arts, NYU is definitely one of the best, if not the best, in the country. </p>
<p>Back to why people "obsess" about getting into the top schools... why not? It's not the end of the world if you don't get in, but why not strive for the best of the best? The best schools may or may not provide a better education than middle-tier schools, but they without a doubt have the students with the best chances for success, as well as successful alumni. The networking available there is just so much better.</p>