<p>WeAreFive - you clearly have a dislike for Caltech which shines through in your posts. Every college is populated by teenagers who are away from home for the first time. Some adolescents may act inappropriately at times, but, hopefully, they grow up and will learn from their mistakes. Even if every event you posted about is true, it only shows that Caltech students are normal for their age. Show me a college where students never drink (other than BYU). Some students are obviously more fragile and socially awkward and would find the college experience anywhere challenging and frightening. That does not mean the college is evil and the students are insensitive. They are kids who are learning who they are. For those students who would find the atmosphere at Caltech uncomfortable, perhaps they should choose another school where they can choose to live alone and avoid social situations that make them uncomfortable. But I can assure you that most Caltech students love the house system and it will make a life long positive impact on their lives.</p>
<p>I lived in the house while it hosted the party that WeAreFive is talking about. I was not a fan of the house system myself, and all my friends from Tech today are pretty much of the same opinion. Definitely, our house would ostensibly seem to be the most frat-like. We had the lowest % of girls because the image we gave off made us less attractive to most Techersāthus, the houses that are perceived more positively had more ability to pull in women after the rotation week. The ironic thing is that this led to our house having a huge percentage of nerds. Then again, most Techers are nerds, but it led to a concentration of the less sociable nerds in this house (at the least, the nerds who appeared less outgoing during the rotation process). So while it may look like this house was dominated by a frat-like and drinking culture, probably only 10-20% of the house really participated fully in that image. I would say even in the ādrinking houseā, 30% of people abstained or drank only once-twice a semester. </p>
<p>You shouldnāt take that āNo fat chicks allowedā sign too seriously. It was probably acquired by a few people (I donāt think they made it just for this party) and was more of a function of most people in the house not caring enough to do a proper theme/decoration. If you have any other photos from that party, it should come across quickly that maybe a few man-hours went into preparing for it, compared to the amazing stuff done by Blacker for their parties. Also, the sign is a bit of an inside joke IMOāif there are only ~15 girls living in a house of 100 people, you really arenāt going to be too choosy how a girl looks. This is a number of years ago now, so I have no idea if the gender ratio is still as skewed in this house today.</p>
<p>You both make good points, Techersdad and webhappy, but the subtext of each of your replies is that Caltech is a male-dominated school with perhaps a higher risk of, shall we say, unenlightened behavior regarding women. Take āyou really arenāt going to be too choosy how a girl looks.ā Call me tender and old-fashioned, but this statement just brings up a visual of a Neanderthal dragging off by the hair any female flesh that meets his needs. Why arenāt the women protesting this sign? What happened to the 60ās protests, so famously begun in California, when women fought mightily not to be objectified like this?
Could it be that their numbers are so small, as are those of students who do not like the frat-like atmosphere or the living arrangements in any of the houses, that they are cowed into silence? What does that do to a female studentās self-esteem, or to a shy, studious personās who prefers not to abuse substances (would that fit your definition of a ānerd,ā another insidious label word?) Maybe what Iām getting at is that I wonder if Caltech is the best school to train undergrads as people of character and integrity as well as top-notch scientists. Maybe it should just be a graduate institution?
And Techersdad, I donāt dislike Caltech. It has many good things to recommend it. I just feel that I need to get out some details in order to inform so people can make good choices. I feel that parents may need to think at least twice about sending daughters there and for shy students who may not like the character of the social life in the houses to be aware before they shell out money and send off their children to such a school.</p>
<p>After reading all of this - thank goodness by D turned down Caltech! Enough of the āboys will be boysā mentality; ājust a jokeā thinking. Would that be allowed or laughed at if another ethnic group was included? At 18 - itās time for the boys to grow up!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think both of these things have happened.</p>
<p>See, thatās the thing. Caltech is a pretty different community than what you see elsewhere. In-jokes can spread through practically the entire campus, so things that would appear completely outrageous to outsiders isnāt seen as such here.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Probably because many of the undergrad females werenāt considered much of a catch in high school, yet when they come here theyāve got a bunch of guys glomming onto them. I know at my undergrad school there was a similar phenomenon, both among guys and girls.</p>
<p>RacinReaver,
Your post in #86 leaves me speechless. Oh, wait. One word is bubbling upā¦Ugh.</p>
<p>As an actual female who goes to Caltech, Iād like to put out there that Iāve actually felt that there is less gender discrimination/separation here than anywhere else Iāve ever been. Thereās no āgirls canāt do mathā or āgirls canāt lift/build thingsā. I feel like everyone is treated as an equal coming in and is judged on their own merits. I canāt speak for anyone else, but I really enjoy the culture of the houses and feel that most undergraduates at Caltech have more honor, stronger morals and greater integrity than the average person.</p>
<p>JNTā¦Thank you so much for speaking up, and I feel the same way about Caltech. Your post should open eyes of some people like WeAreFive, who are apparently misinformed. Again, thank you for your post to dispel these untruths!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The sign should evoke the same reaction as if they had put up a sign saying āNo nerds allowed.ā Iām not even sure why you attach āinsidiousā to the word ānerdāāeveryone I know at Tech would not be embarrassed to admit that theyāre a nerd. By the way, I am actually a member of the camp of people who didnāt like the house system and would have abolished it if I had the choice. Nonetheless, there was no shortage of people who had similar interests to myself. We would play board games (really nerdy ones that make up the top 20 at boardgamegeek.com), card games, video games, Rock Band and DDR, etc. Iām also in agreement that some things could potentially be construed as offensive by certain groups (ie, if it were my choice, I would not have put up that sign but like I said, no one was volunteering to put up the decorations for that party so Iām not even sure how they managed it in the end).</p>
<p>By the way, Avery House was created as an 8th house that would appeal to ātender and old-fashionedā people since grad students and faculty would be living among the undergrad residents. I would have also ranked Avery highly myself (I think I was the last rotation year before Avery become a choice for frosh). Aside: knowing what I know now a few years out of undergrad, Iām not sure if Avery would have been the best choice for me.</p>
<p>Finally, I think WeAreFive has an agenda here since he/she is selectively reading. I clearly indicated my house had the lowest % of women, so itās pretty ridiculous to suddenly claim that the entire school is āmale-dominated with perhaps a higher risk of, shall we say, unenlightened behavior regarding womenā. Iām not even sure how you got to āa visual of a Neanderthal dragging off by the hair any female flesh that meets his needsā. I think itās pretty reasonable for most people to consider physical appearance of a potential date but when the odds are skewed against you, you are forced to change your weightings. I commend your writing, thoughāit sure got enough emotion out of me to type out this long reply.</p>
<p>WeAreFive - any subtext you find in my post is purely your imagination. I think that you are misinformed and are making unsubstantiated claims about the satisfaction of Techers with the house system and social atmosphere at Caltech, again to satisfy some agenda. If the house system and social scene was as toxic as you allege, how do you explain the extremely high number of students who remain in campus housing their entire time at Caltech. If the houses/social scene is uncomfortable for a student, there are off campus housing options, and a small percentage of students avail themselves of it for whatever reasons. My own childās experience has been extremely positive with both the house system and social life at Tech and like many others, belongs to more that one house for social events. Your view on how women are treated also differs greatly from what I have heard. From your posts, it appears that you have determined from one photo of a party and one post by someone who may or may not be a student that women at Caltech are treated poorly and many of the men are neanderthals. I would suggest the readers take WeAreFiveās posts with a great big grain of salt. Read JNTās response above. She is an actual female student.</p>
<p>Hi, Techersdad,
As to āmisinformed,ā Iāll just say that I saw a picture of the neon sign, as I believe I said, that RacinReaver himself says that he and his housemates did not like the house system (maybe he was not a student; from details he gives, though, he seems to have bona fide knowledge of the campus and these events). Also, one of the students who died by suicide at Caltech in 2009 had moved out of one of the houses because he was not comfortable with the house scene. The former house president I quoted saying he got my child drunk again was from a Facebook page. So, those are my sources for what Iāve posted. On the other hand, I am glad to hear that the two women posters are happy there. Truly I am. But, that is an ānā of 2, not quite enough numbers. And I guess weād need to hear from the women who saw the actual sign I referred to to ask them how they felt about that, in addition to taking a poll of all of the women at Caltech to see how they feel things are going for them there. An anonymous student survey of their satisfaction with the house system wouldnāt be a bad idea, either.
So, yes, you are right. I did extrapolate with opinions that cannot be validated. (They were really rhetorical questions I was asking myself, and for others to ponder.) Since this is a public forum and since parents will be sending off precious offspring to this school and also spending a large chunk of change to do so, I just want information to get out there so people can weigh the final choice better. In fact, I find it my duty to inform about these things. And so Iāve dispatched my duty, and will leave it at that. Believe what you will, parents, but be aware. Tuition may not be the only price you pay if you send your child to Caltech.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Actually, the only time Iāve been in the undergrad houses was when I went to a few parties to see what they were like. Interhouse was pretty impressive with some of the decorations the houses put up (I remember one of them built a boat big enough to have people dance on that was put inside of a moat), but Iād say the general āpartyā atmosphere is pretty darned tame compared to what Iāve seen at other schools.</p>
<p>(I will admit to not being very fond of the graduate housing, though. I mean, really, could they have designed apartments to let even less light in? And dark blue carpeting. Seriously?)</p>
<p>Itās important to remember what the choice is between here. Unless youāre considering an all-girls college, you donāt get an option between Caltech, where some of the guys are admittedly bad at interacting with girls, and a magic fun land where everyoneās respected and happy. Guys are dumb at any college; at caltech, you can at least trust that most of them will be too awkward around girls to do dumb things.</p>
<p>If you donāt like the housing system, sure, thatās a good reason not to come (and please donāt trust the BS from admissions about how it is the aforementioned magic fun land). But donāt think that Caltech is going to make you feel less comfortable than any other college, because unless youāre uncomfortable around too many quiet people it wonāt happen.</p>
<p>@WeAreFive, I just read your first post and am truly sorry for your loss. Last Spring (2010) over just two weeks, three students (Sophomores and Juniors) took their lives at Cornell. I was so worried that I communicated with the administration urging them to do more to prevent such tragedies (I thought their problem was the overwhelming stress coming from excessive academic pressure and fierce competition). They put up a tall fence around the gorges where the tragedies happened. We all have this apprehension that wherever our children go, things beyond our control can happen. I appreciate you taking the time and sharing the painful experience. I agree that the institutions should do more to warn and involve parents to prevent such awful things from happening. Many colleges including Cornell (where my other son is enrolled) seem to be doing more now, and hope that Caltech raises its awareness and put in place some streamlined guideline for preventing and warning.
[College</a> Student Suicides | Association of Governing Boards](<a href=āhttp://agb.org/bpnews/2011/winter/college-student-suicides]Collegeā>http://agb.org/bpnews/2011/winter/college-student-suicides)</p>
<p>Has Caltech done anything to restrict roof access? Have you talked to them like you talked to Cornellās people? Active Minds, Inc. is a wonderful peer-to-peer mental health support group. We have given money every year for the past two years to start a chapter at Caltech and I have been in touch with a woman undergrad I sensed had an activist bent to see if she wanted to start a chapter or have an Out of the Darkness college walk sponsored by the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. So far, no inroads there. Iām trying but have been met with scorched-earth lawyering and outrageous California state laws regarding the reporting of suicide by mental health professionals and a curious (and outrageous) disparity between what counselors on college campuses in California are required by law to do and what counselors off campuses in California are required to do. Why is this so? Caltech touted in their orientation how while they had a small health and mental health center, they were surrounded by the best health and mental health facilities in the country. Obviously I am not in a position of much power here. We are not a family of means. We lost a precious human being, someone to whom I had devoted my life to raising, and two other families lost equally precious sons. Isnāt there something you or others who may have the ear of Caltech peopleāif anyone outside their circle of wagons does, and ask to see, and disseminate to the community, exactly what measures they have taken to ensure the health and well-being of their students? Thank you.</p>
<p>And Techersdad, I did not determine, or even say, that many of the men at Caltech are Neanderthals as you purport I did. I said that the comments by RacinReaver brought up a visual for me of a Neanderthal dragging off by her hair any available woman whom he thought could meet his needs. That is not the same thing, pls note.</p>
<p>If you search a while back there was a fairly active discussion of the steps Caltech was taking after the recent set of student/grad/faculty suicides at Caltech. I believe their historical average has been considerably below that of the national average at colleges, and that of college students is significantly lower than that of non-college students for individuals of the same age.</p>
<p>I remember attending one discussion held by Caltech after a grad studentās suicide saying how it is very common to see them happening in clusters, since after the first incident the possibility becomes āmore realā to other individuals within their community.</p>
<p>WeAreFive, I just read your post in the Cafe and realize now that I know who your late son was (we lived in the same house but werenāt that close). I understand now why you have an agenda against Caltechāany parent in your situation would be angry at the school.</p>
<p>I think you should be fair and ask two questions:
a) Did the drinking culture in this house increase the chances of the suicide occurring? My understanding is that the main cause was a breakup with a girl, which seems tangential to the topics (ie, drinking and house traditions) we have been addressing in this thread.
b) If true, would the drinking culture be more or less prevalent in a comparable school like MIT or Stanford? You might say itās easier at these schools to avoid alcohol because the house system forces people into a frat-like atmosphere, but each person has enough control to reject the houses with a drinking image. And what if your son went into an actual fraternity at these schools (ie, the parties at Caltech are still nowhere near regular frat prties)?</p>
<p>The main cause of a personās dying by suicide is an underlying mental illness at the time of death (at at least a 90% chance or greater). Stresses such as failed or foundering personal relationships are called āprecipitating factors.ā The deans and counselor knew intimate details about the cluster of precipitating factors in my childās life preceding his death. In addition, there are details I wonāt divulge that might blow you away with how negligent they were. Granted that the law still judges the decedent of suicide to be responsible, the zeitgeist, legally and otherwise, (how we would like to extend āTarasoffā to include suicidal patients, or make legal precedent to reduce the number of deaths by suicide),albeit slow, seems to be trending toward making colleges accountable, not for predicting beforehand who will or will not commit suicide among their student body, (extremely difficult) but for failing to act appropriately when there is a known and credible threat of suicide.
And I may or may not have posted about the things Iāve mentioned even if he had not died: When I saw the things I saw, I began to wonder just what kind of atmosphere there is at Caltech. Certainly no parent wants to see that their underage child was gotten ādrunk againā posted on a Facebook by the president of the house. As I say, I feel Iāve done my duty. I have told the truth of my experience. I trust the intelligence of any readers of this forum to weigh these facts, and some opinions, to make the best decisions for themselves and their children.</p>
<p>"When it comes to finding out about a studentās well-being, there are several things parents can do to penetrate the typical nondisclosure stance of colleges. Jeff Levy, an advocate for more and better parental notification by colleges and universities, recommends:</p>
<p>Ā Know the reputation of the school. āI thought a party school was where they had a lot of parties,ā Mr. Levy says. āInstead, I found out that it means that the school will let students do just about anything without notifying parents.ā</p>