Why can't engineering be more relaxed?

College Majors Engineering Majors
101

<p>I'm going to make it worse.</p>

<p>Affirmative action and Vietnam changed things over in liberal arts. If you didn't want your students in 'Nam, you ensured that, no matter what, they would get the grades to meet the cut-off. When affirmative action became big, grades also went up; they didn't want to flunk out those kids. So there's grade inflation in the humanities that hasn't spilled over to engineering. I think that some of it is quite simple: the big question is whether or not your bridge can hold the weight, and they don't want to set you loose in the world when you don't have the skills. There is also a certain pride in engineering being a meritocracy, and I don't think that professors are willing to change that. </p>

<p>Another issue is putting people into the workforce. If you keep the number of engineers low by flunking a lot of them out, everyone gets jobs if they make it through (much like medical school). </p>

<p>In law school, they regulate the market (somewhat, and badly) by regulating bar passage. Personally, I would prefer to be flunked out at the beginning, rather than go through the education but have it be worthless. </p>

<p>I don't personally object to grade deflation; I only object to being compared to a humanities major, grade for grade, with no accounting for the more difficult subject matter AND the lower grades overall.</p>

102

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Aibarr specifically said that she thought that the person should have failed. How is that any different from a TA assigning final grades? </p>

<p>This makes no sense at ALL.

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<p>You said you wanted the person to fail. Yes, or no?</p>

<p>If the answer is 'yes', then perhaps you can explain to wrprice why you think you have the right to make that determination, merely as the TA, to make this decision. Like I said, that's the prof's decision to make, not yours. </p>

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You just keep saying the same things over and over again

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<p>What, as opposed to saying different things? Isn't consistency supposed to be a virtue? What would you think about somebody who keeps giving you a different opinion about the same subject everytime you ask about it? You should expect people to give the SAME opinion about the same subject. If I think something is wrong, then everytime I discuss it, I am going to keep saying that it is wrong until somebody convinces me otherwise. I am not going to change my answers depending on what day of the week it is. </p>

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I'm done arguing about it. I disagree with you

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If you flood a medium with noise, no one can claim the signal isn't there. (Doesn't mean it's useful any more.) I'm outta this thread, Sakky. There's no point to arguing with someone who's dead-set on shouting to the world that he thinks he's right.

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<p>Funny, if you guys just wanted to leave the thread, you could have done so at any time. Nobody ever had a gun to your head forcing you to participate.</p>

<p>And for the record, I disagree with both of you. So what? That's the whole point of having a discussion board - so people can see a diversity of opinions. Why even have a discussion board at all if people are only allowed to see one set of opinions? You guys have stated your opinions, and I have stated mine.</p>

103

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There is also a certain pride in engineering being a meritocracy, and I don't think that professors are willing to change that.

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<p>Which means that engineering profs didn't really care if their students flunked out, got drafted to fight in Vietnam, and got killed there. What do you think that says about how engineering profs treat their students? Liberal arts profs, if nothing else, at least cared enough about their students to try to protect them from dying in a war. </p>

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I think that some of it is quite simple: the big question is whether or not your bridge can hold the weight, and they don't want to set you loose in the world when you don't have the skills.

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<p>For numerous reasons that I have enumerated in this thread, I think this line of reasoning, if it is the actual reasoning of the departments, is flawed. This is particularly true of the top programs. Many people who flunk out of the top programs could have gotten engineering degrees at lower-tier schools, and in fact, many of those flunkouts (or who withdraw before they actually flunk out) do exactly that - they transfer to a lower-tier school and graduate and become practicing engineers. So, their initial flunkout really had nothing to do with public safety, but in reality, had to do with protecting the brand name of the school.</p>

104

<p>Okay, so I lied... I'm only finished with the arbitrary "harshness" argument. This is too hard to let go:</p>

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Aibarr specifically said that she thought that the person should have failed. How is that any different from a TA assigning final grades?

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<p>This makes no sense at ALL.

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<p>You said you wanted the person to fail. Yes, or no?</p>

<p>If the answer is 'yes', then perhaps you can explain to wrprice why you think you have the right to make that determination, merely as the TA, to make this decision. Like I said, that's the prof's decision to make, not yours.

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<p>She said she thought the person should fail; you may equate "thought" to "want" if you must, it's really irrelevant. She's a person, and she has not only the capacity but the right (in this country, at least) to hold her own opinion. In fact, she doesn't even have to be a TA to form her own opinion; however, her actual status as the course TA simply gives her credibility since she has seen the performance of the students first-hand while grading and evaluating their work.</p>

<p>Now, aibarr, as a person with an opinion, expresses (read: speaks) that opinion to the professor. You, Sakky, ask: "How is that any different from a TA assigning final grades?" The answer is elementary: she's NOT filling in the final grade sheet. I don't know how to be any more clear.</p>

<p>If the professor, after hearing her opinion, agreed and filled-in an 'F' for the student's grade, then it is the PROFESSOR'S choice (and right) to do so. As for that gun-to-the-head analogy you like to make, there was no gun involved. And, in fact, the professor CHOSE to do otherwise. Aibarr, expressing her opinion, was doing only that.</p>

<p>Now... about that gun-to-head analogy...</p>

<p>Yes, no one is forcing us to read your rants. Yes, we may leave at any time. It's very frustrating when your method of getting the last word is by sheer volume (and tangential arguments). Just as we can give up and leave, you, too, could choose to "agree to disagree" occasionally instead of telling every dissenter to "shoo and leave" (my words, not yours). Because, most importantly, quantity does not equate to quality -- and if there's one thing this thread has, it's quantity. The original topic, however, has long since disappeared. Take it as you will, but I've never met someone with a greater ability to argue at length against points that no one has made (see: final grade argument).</p>

105

<p>Funny, wrprice, I thought you said you didn't want to debate this anymore. Yet here you are. Why don't you just admit that you enjoy talking about this subject just as much as I do? </p>

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Just as we can give up and leave, you, too, could choose to "agree to disagree" occasionally instead of telling every dissenter to "shoo and leave" (my words, not yours).

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<p>Huh? When did I tell you or anybody else to leave? In fact, I WELCOME debate. That is what the board is for.</p>

<p>To be clear, you should state your opinions, in fact I want you to do that. But then I am also going to state mine. And if I think your opinions are wrong, then I am going to point out why I think they are wrong. You are free to do the same. </p>

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Now, aibarr, as a person with an opinion, expresses (read: speaks) that opinion to the professor. You, Sakky, ask: "How is that any different from a TA assigning final grades?" The answer is elementary: she's NOT filling in the final grade sheet. I don't know how to be any more clear.

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<p>No, but she is ATTEMPTING TO INFLUENCE the final grade sheet. From what I can tell, she gave an unsolicited opinion to the prof regarding what a particular student's final grade is. I would call that meddling into business that isn't yours. </p>

<p>Now, again, if the prof specifically asked for her opinion, fine. But if not, then why is she trying to influence the final outcome? To me, that's just a case of tattling on somebody. After all, why stop there? Why not have students tattling on each other that "Jimmy didn't understand such and such concept during the lab, so you should give him an F". That's just unwarranted meddling in other people's affairs. There is the difference between expressing your opinion, and actively attempting to change a final outcome. It's like the difference between me thinking that "Phil is a bad engineer", and me actually calling up Phil's boss and trying to convince his boss to fire him. </p>

<p>Come on, I thought we were all taught as kids that it's uncouth to be talking bad about other people. That's what I see here. She's giving an unsolicited bad opinion about somebody else. You know what they say when you can't say something good about somebody,...</p>

106

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Yes, no one is forcing us to read your rants.

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<p>Is that supposed to be pejorative, my friend? Like I said, if you don't like my posts, then don't read them. </p>

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Because, most importantly, quantity does not equate to quality -- and if there's one thing this thread has, it's quantity. The original topic, however, has long since disappeared. Take it as you will, but I've never met someone with a greater ability to argue at length against points that no one has made

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<p>I would venture to say that the vast majority of threads on CC go off-topic. So if going off-topic is wrong, then most posters on CC are wrong. </p>

<p>Secondly, yes, I state a laundry list of points. But I don't expect you to debate them point-by-point. You can choose to discuss any of them, or none of them, or even come up with your own. In short, you are free to do what you want. If I say 5 things and only 1 of them interests you, then by all means, talk about only that 1 point. If none of them interests you, then fine, don't do anything.</p>

107

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Funny, wrprice, I thought you said you didn't want to debate this anymore. Yet here you are. Why don't you just admit that you enjoy talking about this subject just as much as I do?

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I don't want to debate (the original topic) any more, and alluded to such in my own post; you need not repeat it again for the purpose of being snide. And, no, I do not enjoy this... but some of your logic is so totally flawed it must be pointed out. (sigh)</p>

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In fact, I WELCOME debate. That is what the board is for.

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Not exactly. It's here to share information; sometimes a debate comes along with that information, but the purpose is not the debate itself. There's something to be said for arguing succinctly; you've got the "argue" part, but not the "succinct." (IMHO)</p>

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. . . she is ATTEMPTING TO INFLUENCE the final grade sheet.

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Stop the presses and hold the phone! O.M.G. By golly, someone's trying to influence someone else!! Sakky, what, exactly are you doing by entering all these "debates" on this site? You must admit, unless your sole purpose is to read yourself in print, that you hope to help influence someone's choice or opinion. Influencing someone's life (e.g. school/major choice) has a LOT more potential for harm than a single course grade. If you're so worried about offering "unsolicited opinions," then I seriously suggest you hold your debates for people who specifically PM you.</p>

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. . . she gave an unsolicited opinion to the prof regarding what a particular student's final grade is. I would call that meddling into business that isn't yours.

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But she was a course TA. What was and was-not her business is up to the working relationship between her and the course's professor, not for you to decide. Based on previous statements, she obviously knew the student's eventual grade, so barring any covert break-ins to the professor's office or the registrar's office, the professor SHARED that information with her -- thus it was her business.</p>

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She's giving an unsolicited bad opinion about somebody else.

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And what makes you think her opinion was either, A) unsolicited, or B) bad? You're making these assumptions and slandering an individual.</p>

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You know what they say when you can't say something good about somebody,...

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Based on your own words, I'm not sure that's very clear, is it? Seriously, when one's job is to evaluate others, it's not "tattling" or anything else.</p>

108

<p>I don't find this fun. I don't find this funny.</p>

<p>I don't enjoy this at all. This is not a debate, this is a rip-aibarr-for-being-a-crappy-TA-and-an-even-worse-person diatribe, perpetrated by sakky.</p>

<p>Quit attacking me, and back off. I sincerely hope you'll apologize for your words against me. You have no idea what the situation that I was in entailed, and even though I did give further explanation, you seem to have disregarded that entirely and have decided to use my personal example against me, to slander me, as wrprice said, and to launch a four-page debate on what a morally corrupt and retribution-hungry monster of a teaching assistant I was.</p>

<p>If someone had been that harsh and rude in their criticisms against you, sakky, I promise that you'd have crapped a brick and hit them with it. You've threatened far worse for far less. </p>

<p>Please apologize for making drastic assumptions about my moral character when you have little to no idea of the background behind my decisions to express my opinion.</p>

109

<p>I'm a TA. If I feel a student is not putting forth any effort, I have no problem recommending a failing grade to the professor. (That and 60% of the grades are in my hands anyways). So what? Sue me :p</p>

<p>Please direct your anger away from aibarr and flame me instead :)</p>

110

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I don't want to debate (the original topic) any more, and alluded to such in my own post; you need not repeat it again for the purpose of being snide. And, no, I do not enjoy this...

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<p>But yet you keep coming back. If you REALLY didn't enjoy this, you would have left the thread a long time ago. </p>

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In fact, I WELCOME debate. That is what the board is for. </p>

<p>Not exactly. It's here to share information; sometimes a debate comes along with that information, but the purpose is not the debate itself. There's something to be said for arguing succinctly; you've got the "argue" part, but not the "succinct." (IMHO)

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<p>Oh really? Where does it say in the terms of service that I have to be 'succinct'? I believe I have the freedom of speech to discuss a point the way that I want to discuss it. If I choose too much quantity (in your opinion) and that makes my arguments unconvincing, that's my problem, not yours. It has nothing to do with you. Why are you so interested in helping me shape my arguments anyway?</p>

<p>Besides, I used to try 'succinct' arguments. Guess what happened? People began to complain that I was not being detailed enough! So I think I will happily stick with my style. I've learned that you can't please anybody. No matter what you do, somebody is going to complain that you are either too brief or too verbose. Since you can't please everybody, I think I am just going to write the way that I want to write, and let the chips fall where they may.</p>

<p>Besides, like I said, just because I write a lot doesn't mean that you have to read it all. I am not forcing anybody to read my posts. So why complain about it? If it's too long for you to read, fine, don't read it. </p>

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Stop the presses and hold the phone! O.M.G. By golly, someone's trying to influence someone else!! Sakky, what, exactly are you doing by entering all these "debates" on this site? You must admit, unless your sole purpose is to read yourself in print, that you hope to help influence someone's choice or opinion. Influencing someone's life (e.g. school/major choice) has a LOT more potential for harm than a single course grade. If you're so worried about offering "unsolicited opinions," then I seriously suggest you hold your debates for people who specifically PM you.

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<p>The problem is with UNDUE influence. I, of course, am attempting to influence opinions here. So are you. So is aibarr. So is everybody else. That is what the discussion forum is for, and that is an appropriate use of the board.</p>

<p>The situation with aibarr attempting to fail the student is rather different, you must agree. Did the prof ASK for her opinion? If so, that would be fine. But if not, then why is she automatically attempting to INJECT her opinion? That is not her call, as a TA, to make. </p>

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But she was a course TA. What was and was-not her business is up to the working relationship between her and the course's professor, not for you to decide. Based on previous statements, she obviously knew the student's eventual grade, so barring any covert break-ins to the professor's office or the registrar's office, the professor SHARED that information with her -- thus it was her business.

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<p>And I believe that attempting to influence final grades is questionable behavior. Look, I've been a TA too. It was also my job to grade papers and labs. And I also knew what all of the final grades were. But it wasn't my job to attempt to INFLUENCE who got what final grade. After all, think about what that would mean. It would mean that I might feel pressure to get A's for all of my friends. If there is a girl in the class that I like, then maybe I'll just try to get an A for her just because I like her. The pressure works the other way too - my friends might pressure me to use my influence to get them high grades. And if I just happen to not like somebody personally, I'll "punish" them by trying to get the prof to fail them. Don't you see the smarminess in this? </p>

<p>That's why I believe we are better off when TA's don't attempt to influence final grades. That is why I disagree with what aibarr did. The job of the TA is to act as a purely mechanical grader. Not to attempt to influence the final grading by saying that "so and so" is great or is bad, so he deserves a higher or lower grade. Otherwise, you will inevitably end up with the situation where a TA just tries to get A's for all his friends. </p>

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And what makes you think her opinion was either, A) unsolicited, or B) bad? You're making these assumptions and slandering an individual.

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<p>Well, did she SAY it was solicited? As far as I can tell, it was not. And definitely, the opinion she gave was bad. After all, she did say that the guy should have failed. How is that not a bad opinion? </p>

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I don't find this fun. I don't find this funny.

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<p>Then, like I said, don't participate. </p>

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I don't enjoy this at all. This is not a debate, this is a rip-aibarr-for-being-a-crappy-TA-and-an-even-worse-person diatribe, perpetrated by sakky.

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<p>I didn't say that you were a crappy TA. I'm sure you were fine. I said that I disagree with that move you made. And so have others on this thread. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, as many people have. That is what a discussion board is all about. We are not all supposed to agree on everything. If we did, then there would be little point in having a board. </p>

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Quit attacking me, and back off. I sincerely hope you'll apologize for your words against me. You have no idea what the situation that I was in entailed, and even though I did give further explanation, you seem to have disregarded that entirely and have decided to use my personal example against me, to slander me, as wrprice said, and to launch a four-page debate on what a morally corrupt and retribution-hungry monster of a teaching assistant I was.

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<p>If you consider this a personal attack, go through just this thread, and you will see that I have been attacked in a far worse manner. I am not asking for anybody to apologize. </p>

<p>I simply disagree with what you did. Nothing more, nothing less. When did I ever say that you were a 'crappy' TA or that you were morally corrupt? I simply don't think TA's, unless asked, should attempt to influence the final assignment of letter grades. That's all. </p>

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I'm a TA. If I feel a student is not putting forth any effort, I have no problem recommending a failing grade to the professor. (That and 60% of the grades are in my hands anyways). So what? Sue me

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</p>

<p>And I disagree with you too. Like I said, I believe TA's should be impartial and mechanical scorers. Otherwise, you end up with the situation where a TA begins to recommend A's to all of his friends just beause they are his friends. If a TA doesn't like somebody personally, he'll just recommend him for an F just because he doesn't like him. Do you see the slippery slope here?</p>

111

<p>This is a close debate. I dont think anyone has beaten sakky...yet.</p>

112

<p>Now, hopefully that we are finished talking about semantics and debate tactics, let's try to get back to the original question - which is why can't engineering be more relaxed?</p>

<p>It is my opinion that engineering could indeed be far more relaxed than it is. In my opnion, there is nothing that stops this from happening that couldn't be addressed with some reforms. For example, engineering programs could, if necessary, enforce entrance and exit exams. They could use grading innovations like hidden/shadow/exploratory grading mechanisms like certain schools already do. They could just vastly increase initial selectivity. In fact, we already have a model that blazes the trail as to how a school really could run an engineering program that is both top-notch and is relatively relaxed. That model is the Stanford model. After all, nobody accuses Stanford of producing engineers that are dangerous to public safety. Stanford engineers get many of the plum engineering jobs in the world, many of which are tied to public safety. </p>

<p>The main reason that I see that engineering isn't more relaxed is that the engineering community doesn't WANT it to be more relaxed. I think they could do it, they just don't want to do it. There's a big difference between 'can't', and 'don't want to'. I think you've seen much evidence here on this thread of a strong rearguard action of attempting to preserve the pain of engineering, even when that pain isn't really necessary. I have seen it in many other areas other than this thread. From what I can tell, many people have the attitude that just because they went through pain when they were studying engineering, they want all future engineers to have to endure the same pain, even if it isn't really necessary. </p>

<p>Don't get me wrong. That's not to say that there should never be any pain. I didn't say that. What I am saying is that the pain should serve an actual purpose. You don't undergo pain just for the sake of pain. Before you inflict pain on people, you should ask yourself if an alternative exists that would accomplish the same goals without having to inflict that pain. Again, I would point to Stanford as an example of a school that has figured out a way to provide an engineering education with relatively little pain. If Stanford can do it, why can't others? But again, like I said, I don't think it's really a matter of 'can't'. It's really a matter of not wanting to. </p>

<p>So if that's the case, then I would predict that more and more people will prefer the less painful schools. Those schools that continue to insist on a painful education will lose students to the other schools. For example, right now, if I had to choose between Caltech and Stanford, I would choose Stanford. Why? Because, frankly, Stanford is less painful. Both of these schools are elite engineering schools. Stanford engineers get just as good of jobs as Caltech engineers do. The main difference is that Stanford is much less painful. Why go through pain if you don't have to? This is not a contest to see who can endure the most pain. This is about becoming a good engineer, and I think nobody disputes that Stanford produces some pretty good engineers. </p>

<p>Hence, I think through 'natural selection', engineering schools will be forced to adopt less painful tactics, as they will find that the more painful they are, the more students they lose to other schools. Heck, Caltech has already adapted, as Caltech is far less painful than it was, say, 50 years ago, when the majority of undergrads never made it to graduation. So if you're going to have to adapt anyway, why not just quicken the process in order to spare students some pain that, in retrospect, may not have been necessary?</p>

113

<p>My god. You just keep. on. going.</p>

<p>There are people who are here to argue, and there are people who are here to inform. Hint: the people here to inform don't like arguing. Don't argue with them.</p>

<p>When you criticize a specific person's actions, they inevitably feel the need to defend themselves. It's social and psychological nature. It's absurd to expect anybody to let themselves be continually slammed ("bad opinions"? gimme a break.) for several pages without them wanting to explain themselves, whether they want to continue the conversation or not.</p>

<p>The instructor DID ask me for his input, the ENTIRE time along the way, and we talked about the progress of the course and the students' understanding of the material quite candidly and quite often, just exactly as I said in post forty-eight. This was the instructor's first course, and he was a PhD student with zero teaching experience. He welcomed my opinions, even if you feel the need to continually condemn them.</p>

<p>As much as you want them to be grading-robots, if TAs are impartial and mechanical, then who's going to care about the students? The professors? All due respect to them, but they don't hand out people skills with doctorates. If the TAs didn't watch out for the students, then a large part of the time, nobody would. It goes both ways: I voiced my opinion that it was the professor's final call, but that this kid didn't do any of the problem sets beyond the first two, and that he failed both the exams, and that I didn't feel comfortable not saying anything about his performance. The guy was very apparently not even trying, and I backed my opinion with my closer observations. BUT... I also ran interference for the students. A LOT of interference. I did far more good for their GPAs than I did bad.</p>

<p>Perhaps you're not intending to be malicious, sakky, but you just won't let go. You won't quit criticizing me. You've said your peace, and you're certainly welcome to disagree with my actions, but you're not welcome to disagree and disagree and criticize and disagree, dragging things on for eight pages. This is why you really ought to apologize. </p>

<p>I've offered you explanations, though I honestly owe you none, and you've offered nothing but criticisms, even though you've not been asked for criticisms, and they had nothing to do with the subject at hand. Give it up.</p>

114

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But yet you keep coming back. If you REALLY didn't enjoy this, you would have left the thread a long time ago.

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<p>You really believe that? Then by extension, I'm sure all the soldiers in Iraq "REALLY [do] enjoy" it, or they wouldn't be there. That logic is simply impeccable!</p>

<p>Or... perhaps they feel they have something to contribute that is worth the inconvenience or danger? Jump to whatever conclusions you want (and you do), but I think you've made your objective very clear with that statement.</p>

<p>That's the difference between you and me, Sakky: I'd be disappointed if my "information" made other people frustrated enough to leave, but you think it's some sort of contest that others enjoy.</p>

<p>ASIDE: I also don't think a lack of information is sufficient grounds for jumping to conclusions that are then used to <em>justify</em> attacking an individual's character. And I would apologize after doing so, especially when asked -- it's only polite.</p>

115

<p>Guys, don't feed the troll ;)</p>

116

<p>
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1) Get rid of all of those no-name, low-tier schools that are nonetheless ABET accredited. Or at least, force them to raise their standards. The truth is, these schools turn out a good number of graduates of dubious ability. Like I've said many times, it's not that hard to to get an ABET-accredited engineering degree from a no-name school. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of ABET-accredited no-name schools out there.

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<p>Honestly...that little comment just irritates the mess out of me.</p>

<p>And I agree with the TA who is upset about that kid passing. If he didn't earn his degree, he shouldn't have gotten it. It's as simple as that.</p>

117

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Get rid of all of those no-name, low-tier schools that are nonetheless ABET accredited. Or at least, force them to raise their standards.

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<p>You point to MIT and Stanford as examples of (top) schools with forgiving engineering departments. You ask why other schools can't follow suit, when you've all but already answered the question yourself!</p>

<p>It is because MIT and Stanford are so selective, so recognized, and so highly-regarded that they can make their engineering departments more relaxed. The result of these policies? MIT graduates a few extra engineers, engineers who, as you said, very likely would have made it at a less prestigious institution and become engineers anyway. No harm done.</p>

<p>Imagine, now, these "low-tier" schools followed MIT's example and made an engineering degree even easier to obtain. They will inevitably churn out even more engineers, quite a few unfit to be engineers at all. Perhaps they are looking out for public safety in the best way they can (i.e. maintaining the status quo); perhaps they can't raise their standards much, but they sure can choose not to lower them.</p>

118

<p>Its quite simple:
When english majors screw up, a period is missing from your newspaper in the morning and causes a few headaches in people who pay attention to that kind of stuff.
When engineers screw up, a bolt is missing from a plane, and causes that plane falls out of the sky from 37,000ft and kills 100+ people.</p>

<p>If you think about it, engineers and doctors are pretty much the only majors that when they screw up, you're life could end. Only humans are built to live and die naturally, so does this place engineers as the most important majors in the world?
Then again, every major has some relation to engineering. Engineers are simply problem solvers, and everyday, every major is faced with a problem.</p>

<p>ps- yeah, im an engineering major =P</p>

119

<p>what about nurses and pharmacists?</p>

<p>in the national geo channel one plane had an accident because the technician screwed up with something.</p>

120

<p>
[quote]
You really believe that? Then by extension, I'm sure all the soldiers in Iraq "REALLY [do] enjoy" it, or they wouldn't be there. That logic is simply impeccable!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Huh? How is that? The soldiers in Iraq are FORCED to be there. No soldier has the 'right' to leave the battlefield anytime he wishes. </p>

<p>Now, one might say that somebody who signs up for the Army knowing full well that he will be shipped off to Iraq is probably doing so out of free will. The major difference between that situation and this one is that, in this situation, you are free to leave ANYTIME YOU WANT. A soldier who gets shipped off to Iraq and discovers that he hates it is not free to leave. </p>

<p>So, wrprice, let me ask you, why do you keep coming back, if you are not interested in this subject? I freely admit that I find this subject extremely interesting. You apparently do too, otherwise you wouldn't keep coming back. Nobody has a gun to your head, pal. I can't force you to be here. </p>

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[quote]
ASIDE: I also don't think a lack of information is sufficient grounds for jumping to conclusions that are then used to <em>justify</em> attacking an individual's character. And I would apologize after doing so, especially when asked -- it's only polite.

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</p>

<p>Who says that I am 'attacking' anybody? I merely stated that I disagree with somebody. Since when is a disagreement an attack? If so, then plenty of people here ought to apologize to me for disagreeing with me. </p>

<p>Look, disagreement is what a healthy discussion is all about. What kind of discussion can you really have if nobody is allowed to disagree with anybody? Seems to me that you are impinging on my right to free speech. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The instructor DID ask me for his input, the ENTIRE time along the way, and we talked about the progress of the course and the students' understanding of the material quite candidly and quite often, just exactly as I said in post forty-eight. This was the instructor's first course, and he was a PhD student with zero teaching experience. He welcomed my opinions, even if you feel the need to continually condemn them

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, really? Here is what you said in post #48. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Aside: The professor wasn't actually a professor, and was a PhD student who was finishing up his doctorate. Good guy, but I had sooo much more teaching experience than he did... I kept the gradebook for him, and ran stats on every assignment/quiz/exam for him, and that kid would routinely not show up for class, and didn't do any of the problem sets beyond the first two, the second of which he flunked. We regularly talked about the students, and how they were doing, because I had a lot more direct contact with them than he did, and I gave him a lot of feedback on how his teaching was being received... So normally, I wouldn't be like, 'omg fail him,' but the instructor was completely new to the whole teaching thing, and when he rounded the guy up from an F to a C-, I was like, um...)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't see any evidence whatsoever that he actually asked you what grade to assign to which students. It seems to me that he was just asking you for feedback on his teaching, but not about what grades to hand out. And it seems to me that he wouldn't have wanted this advice anyway, considering that he ignored your advice to fail the guy and instead gave him a C-.</p>

<p>Aibarr, that is where I have a problem with what you did. TA's should not be attempting to influence the final grading. Otherwise, like I said, what is to stop a TA from trying to give A's to all his friends just because they're his friends? Or trying to fail somebody just because he doesn't like them personally? Apparently, nothing. That is why I believe that TA's should not be trying to influence final grading. It's not their job. It's like a cop who deliberately goes around trying to act as a judge. The cops are just supposed to execute the laws the way that the laws are written, and it is up to judges to interpret the laws for ambiguity. It is not the job of the cops to go around interpreting laws, it is their job to merely apply the laws. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Perhaps you're not intending to be malicious, sakky, but you just won't let go. You won't quit criticizing me. You've said your peace, and you're certainly welcome to disagree with my actions, but you're not welcome to disagree and disagree and criticize and disagree, dragging things on for eight pages. This is why you really ought to apologize.

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</p>

<p>When people question my logic, I have the right to defend myself. Look, if nobody had impugned my logic, I wouldn't have carried the discussion forward. I am not sitting here talking to myself. If nobody continues the discussion, then neither will I. </p>

<p>Look, aibarr, you may well have been the greatest TA in the world for all I know. My point is that I disagree with your attempting to influence the final grading. Nothing more, nothing less. I apologize for nothing. After all, plenty of people have disagreed with me about many things here on CC, including my actions, and I have never asked for an apology. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And I agree with the TA who is upset about that kid passing. If he didn't earn his degree, he shouldn't have gotten it. It's as simple as that.

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<p>But that is the whole point. The question is not about whether somebody is worthy to graduate or not. The question is ** who decides who is worthy? ** Like I've said many times, I do not believe that TA's have this power, and should not. TA's have a very simple and bounded job. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Quote:
1) Get rid of all of those no-name, low-tier schools that are nonetheless ABET accredited. Or at least, force them to raise their standards. The truth is, these schools turn out a good number of graduates of dubious ability. Like I've said many times, it's not that hard to to get an ABET-accredited engineering degree from a no-name school. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of ABET-accredited no-name schools out there. </p>

<p>Honestly...that little comment just irritates the mess out of me.

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</p>

<p>Hey, I think the notion of a school like Caltech flunking out extremely capable people irritates me too. And that is precisely the point that I was raising - why eliminate a certain group of people, but not others, especially when the former group of people may actually be better than the latter? Shouldn't they ALL be eliminated? Either you should try to get rid of all of these people, or should get rid of none of them. I suspect that the people who flunk out of Caltech are probably better than the people who graduate from no-name schools. So if the issue is eliminating "substandard" people, then let's get rid of ALL of the substandard people.</p>