<p>^dima1109 just accept that you talked out of your ass instead of further proving your ignorance/stupidity. Dima1109 you're making such general comments, its actually quite amusing to see you make a fool of yourself. If we look into every religion we can find extremists who will always support the use of violence, it is not something limited to Islam. Catholics have made a wide spread use of violence in the past, and so have many other religions ( I just mentioned catholicism since I'm catholic). Terrorism is not something limited to religion, on the contrary religion is merely a tool through which certain leaders have found effective control of people, they take advantage of people's faith and guide them towards violence. Terrorism has evolved to encompass clear political and economic goals, religion might be still involved in some cases but at most as a fa</p>
<p>Anyone ever try looking at it in this perspective? Maybe the terrorists aren't exactly losing the war on terrorism. Sure, they certainly aren't winning, as they haven't gained anything politically really anywhere, but it isn't exactly going away either. Think about it for a minute. In the grand scale of things, terrorism kills what, a couple thousand people on this planet every year. The amount of people out there dying of AIDS, car crashes, and pretty much anything else dwarfs this. Unless you're living in Baghdad or Jeruselem or somewhere like that, your chances of actually being directly attacked by terrorists is exceedingly small. Yet how much money is being poured into this issue around the globe? How much political clout is being pushed into this issue everyday? How much has it gotten into the everyday minds of everyday people in this and other countries?</p>
<p>Relatively speaking, terrorist groups are relatively powerless. They can't hold territory. Their ability to actually kill people is relatively small. Compare that to the US. If America wanted to blow every civilized country off the map tomorrow, it literally could. The only thing that holds us back from doing that is the fact that we'd get shot back at and the fact that America has a general sense of sanity. If terrorists manage to blow up a big building, it's a big victory for them. If we blew up a city, that's to be expected with our military might. Yet here we are fighting a global war against the desparate regular folks being lead by fanatics and nutty millionaires in caves. They know the moment that they are made to come out and fight as a real standing army they are toast. Look at what happened to the Taliban. Look what happened to Iraq. One on one no one is really going to stand a chance against a military like the US or Israel. The US military is a wrecking ball, terrorists are barely a blowdart.</p>
<p>Terrorism isn't the mere act of strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a bunch of civilians. It isn't the act of going out there and twisting the words of a religion, any religion and using it for your own means. Terrorism is using intimidation to get your enemy to beat themselves. They need their enemies to overspend, overreact. Their only hope is that their enemy plunges themselves out of control. There is a limit as to what terrorists can do. At some point they can become too big and they expose themselves to easy attack. They can't go out there with all guns blazing. They need to be that small spark in the forest and hope that those trees start burning down. They're hoping that their actions spark bigger reactions which drag in existing tensions and conflicts.</p>
<p>And by that definition, the terrorists aren't losing. I don't claim to know how to figure things out because I don't, and people much smarter than me don't either. I agree we need to come out and bring terrorists out there to justice. I also think we need to start cutting off that fuel source which is driving it in the first place, and in that regard we're not doing so well.</p>
<p>McGizzle,</p>
<p>Well put. excellent points.</p>
<p>pebbles megaman123
i'm not gonna argue, i'll just ignore your guys' growling alltogether, how does that sound?</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Um, because desperate people turn to desperate means. Terrorism won't stop until we address these peoples' needs or at least treat them as our equals and negotiate with them. We have to treat them as human beings. Of course, murder is not allowed, but to stop it, we first have to help the people who are turning to it. Otherwise they will just become more frustrated with us and the terror will continue. I'm not defending terrorists here--I'm saying that we have to understand them and what they want. We don't have to grant it--we just can't afford to alienate them.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>negotiate? yeah right...</p>
<p>listen... we already understand them and what they want, it's simple really. They want the rest of the world to adopt their *****ed up ideology, and they will try anything possible to achieve this. </p>
<p>Whether it means kidnapping, hiding behind women/children in combat, blowing up hundreds of civilians on commuter trains, crashing planes into buildings, or strapping bombs to children and having them walk into a crowded street...they will stop at nothing until we decide to adopt Islam as our national religion and use sharia law as our means of justice.</p>
<p>and THAT is the reason why you can not negotiate with these people...they just can't be reasoned with...</p>
<p>^Scom: You're a moron. Stop generalizing. First of all not all terrorists are Islamic, terrorism is not restricted to one group of people.You sound like one of those retarded conservatives who truly feel that fighting fire with fire is the best solution. Think! Their motives go way beyond religion, religion is a simply a mean to an end for them not their ultimate goal.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
^Scom: You're a moron. Stop generalizing. First of all not all terrorists are Islamic, terrorism is not restricted to one group of people.You sound like one of those retarded conservatives who truly feel that fighting fire with fire is the best solution. Think! Their motives go way beyond religion, religion is a simply a mean to an end for them not their ultimate goal.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>you have much to learn...I'll try to educate you a little bit on current world affairs and welcome you to a thing called reality. Read on...</p>
<p>the biggest global terrorist threat out there lies with fanatical islam...not the KKK and the christian right...</p>
<p>don't give me that bs about timothy mcveigh and the christian right blowing up abortion clinics...blah blah blah...these are exceptions to the rule. </p>
<p>Listen... I'm not saying one religious nut is better than the other...they're all just as bad. What you have to understand is: The Crusades were a LONG time ago...</p>
<p>Today we're faced with something different...a movement...the movement of Islam. Nearly all recent incidents of terrorist acts relate back to a radical interpretation of Islam. </p>
<p>There's a reason why we must take these people very seriously... we can't sit down with them and rationally expect them to stop. Why do you see them in the news asking for a truce with the United States?</p>
<p>It is not because they want peace, rather, it is because we are beating them senseless and they need time to re-group and re-arm their forces. See: Muqtada Al-Sadr. </p>
<p>And rightfully so, the United States refuses to grant them a truce...</p>
<p>here's a post i made awhile back in another thread you should read:</p>
<p>"worst of all...the Ummah as a whole will never speak out against these fanatical clerics who issue wild fatwas... it's against their religion...it is the reason why we have conditions for the spread of future fanatics...and moreover...this is the main reason why bin laden is still at large...</p>
<p>i've read through quite a few of the revelations...and have muslim friends who disclaim radicals... it's a shame that you fail to do the same.</p>
<p>my view is based strictly upon what i have been observing and have read about the uprising and spread of fanatical islam over the last 300 years since the days of Abdul Wahab..."</p>
<p>this war begins in the schools and the mosque's of every country that promotes this wild ideology...and unless the education system is reformed...countries like Iran, Libya, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, etc...will be breeding these people for generations to come...it is a war of ideology...and we are winning. </p>
<p>I'd like to leave you with two links that I suggest you read if you want to actually learn something of value. Sit down and take the time to read these...</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
The following text is a fatwa, or declaration of war, by Osama bin Laden first published in Al Quds Al Arabi, a London-based newspaper, in August, 1996. The fatwa is entitled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places."
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
The following text is the second fatwa originally published on February 23, 1998, to declare a holy war, or jihad, against the West and Israel. </p>
<p>It is signed by Osama bin Laden, head of al Qaeda; Ayman al-Zawahiri, head of Jihad Group in Egypt, and several other Islamic terrorist groups.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>excerpt:</p>
<p>"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God." </p>
<p>We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."</p>
<p>Here's a list of a few attacks that al qaeda was involved in... remember, al qaeda is just ONE of MANY radical islamic terrorist groups...</p>
<p>Have you forgotten?</p>
<p>1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.</p>
<p>1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.</p>
<p>1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.</p>
<p>1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.</p>
<p>1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.</p>
<p>2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.</p>
<p>2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.</p>
<p>2001 (Dec.): Man tried to detonate shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.</p>
<p>2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 14 German tourists.</p>
<p>2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.</p>
<p>2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.</p>
<p>2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing 1.</p>
<p>2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.</p>
<p>2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.</p>
<p>2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. </p>
<p>2003 (May): 4 bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.</p>
<p>2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia. </p>
<p>2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia housing compound, killing 17.</p>
<p>2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked 2 synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.</p>
<p>2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.</p>
<p>2004 (March): 10 bombs on 4 trains exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,400.</p>
<p>2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.</p>
<p>2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.</p>
<p>2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed 9.</p>
<p>2004 (Dec.): Terrorists entered the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 9 (including 4 attackers).</p>
<p>2005 (July): Bombs exploded on 3 trains and a bus in London, England, killing 52.</p>
<p>2005 (Oct.): 22 killed by 3 suicide bombs in Bali, Indonesia.</p>
<p>2005 (Nov.): 57 killed at 3 American hotels in Amman, Jordan.</p>
<p>The following attack wasn't done by al qaeda, but it was probably one of the WORST/best examples of this BS ideology that these people are trying to force upon the rest of the world. I'll never forget the gruesome images of piles of bodies of slaughtered children...thankfully the Russians just nailed the guy behind it. </p>
<p>READ:</p>
<p>The Chechen terrorist who claimed to have masterminded the Beslan school siege was killed in a huge explosion yesterday.</p>
<p>*Shamil Basayev was apparently preparing to mount a fresh attack to coincide with this weekend's G8 summit in St Petersburg. *</p>
<p>Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, was jubilant after being told of Basayev's death. "For the bandits, this is just retribution for our children in Beslan and for all the terrorist attacks they carried out in Moscow and other regions of Russia," he said.</p>
<p>The White House has become increasingly critical of a Kremlin crackdown on democracy in Russia but -terrorism is one area where the two leaders can agree.</p>
<p>**Basayev, who was also on America's list of wanted terrorists, provided parallels with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qa'eda in Iraq, who was killed in a US air strike last month. Like Zarqawi, Basayev focused on orchestrating attacks aimed at causing massive civilian casualties. </p>
<p>Both men, fanatically devoted to radical Islam, also seemed to elude the authorities with ease.**</p>
<p>In 1995 Basayev led a raid on a hospital in the southern Russian city of Budyonnovsk and took hundreds of doctors and patients hostage.</p>
<p>More than 100 people were killed in a bungled raid by security forces but Basayev was allowed to slip back to Chechnya.</p>
<p>McGizzle:
[quote]
Unless you're living in Baghdad or Jeruselem or somewhere like that, your chances of actually being directly attacked by terrorists is exceedingly small.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Aren't you forgetting about a few thousand people in NYC and DC as well as thousands in London, Ireland, Russia, Italy, Spain, Indonesia, Phillipines, and the list goes on and on?</p>
<p>Something else for you to understand...</p>
<p>It is a way of life. </p>
<p>take a gander:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jamaat.org/islam/IslamWay.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jamaat.org/islam/IslamWay.html</a></p>
<p>Islam is not just religion... it encompasses everything...it is a social, economic, educational, philosophic and political way of life. </p>
<p>Islam is different from other religions in that it is not limited to the spiritual aspects of life. It takes over all aspects of life from birth to the grave. Islam claims to have a divine mandate over everyone, and this includes non Muslims too. While non Muslims may not be required to observe the religious rituals of Islam, they must recognize the supremacy of Islamic rule over them. </p>
<p>As an ideology, Islam promises an economic, political, social, & religious utopia when the world finally submits to Allah & the rule of Shari'a law. The Islamic objective is to have all aspects of a nation's culture & institutions undergo gradual Islamization to yield an Islamic state patterned after Shari'a Law.</p>
<p>lol. and that's different from the US wanting to spread 'democracy' and 'capitalism' all over the world, how? We're just smarter. We don't have it written down anywhere. Not like the poor communists.</p>
<p>I dare you to name any doctrine, religion, or belief that does not want itself to dominate.</p>
<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad (hey that's my school, UCLA):</p>
<br>
<p>Aren't you forgetting about a few thousand people in NYC and DC as well as thousands in London, Ireland, Russia, Italy, Spain, Indonesia, Phillipines, and the list goes on and on?</p>
<br>
<p>No I definitely did not forget about places like NYC and DC and London and all them. I only pointed out Baghdad and Jerusalem because those are places where you are at risk of getting blown up on your way to the grocery store or the hairdresser. As far as I know, no one yet has been killed by suicide bombers in New York on the way to Rite Aid or McDonalds. A place like Baghdad is operating on a different level of daily violence (I'm sure there are other cities I have neglected to mention, just wanted to point that out).</p>
<p>That's not to say that terrorism shouldn't be a concern for those cities or those events were any less horrifying. Those terror attacks are not to be taken lightly and those people who did it should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, no mercy involved. Heck I live in LA, it's a big target, there have been terror plots to attack here too (remember the plot to blow up LAX a couple years back?). But fact is, when I step outside in the morning to go to work or school, the chances of me dying in a drive by shooting or a car crash or something like that is still greater than my chances of dying from a suicide bomber or massive terrorist attack. We have not yet plunged into a state of chaos, and that basically is the terrorist goal. So in that aspect we are succeeding. My point of contention was that despite all the money and focus we've thrown at terrorism, the threat hasn't really been reduced in any way, and it has already caused more destabilization of other situations around the world.</p>
<p>I fully believe that terrorists deserve to be punished. They are scum and deserve what they get. I just think what we are not succeeding at is cutting off the fuel for terrorism in the first place. How we fix that, well, no one really knows yet.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
lol. and that's different from the US wanting to spread 'democracy' and 'capitalism' all over the world, how? We're just smarter. We don't have it written down anywhere. Not like the poor communists.</p>
<p>I dare you to name any doctrine, religion, or belief that does not want itself to dominate.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>You miss the point completely...</p>
<p>Ask yourself this question: What has provoked the United States and its attempt to spread democracy?</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
No I definitely did not forget about places like NYC and DC and London and all them. I only pointed out Baghdad and Jerusalem because those are places where you are at risk of getting blown up on your way to the grocery store or the hairdresser. As far as I know, no one yet has been killed by suicide bombers in New York on the way to Rite Aid or McDonalds. A place like Baghdad is operating on a different level of daily violence (I'm sure there are other cities I have neglected to mention, just wanted to point that out).</p>
<p>That's not to say that terrorism shouldn't be a concern for those cities or those events were any less horrifying. Those terror attacks are not to be taken lightly and those people who did it should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, no mercy involved. Heck I live in LA, it's a big target, there have been terror plots to attack here too (remember the plot to blow up LAX a couple years back?). But fact is, when I step outside in the morning to go to work or school, the chances of me dying in a drive by shooting or a car crash or something like that is still greater than my chances of dying from a suicide bomber or massive terrorist attack. We have not yet plunged into a state of chaos, and that basically is the terrorist goal. So in that aspect we are succeeding. My point of contention was that despite all the money and focus we've thrown at terrorism, the threat hasn't really been reduced in any way, and it has already caused more destabilization of other situations around the world.</p>
<p>I fully believe that terrorists deserve to be punished. They are scum and deserve what they get. I just think what we are not succeeding at is cutting off the fuel for terrorism in the first place. How we fix that, well, no one really knows yet.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>well, maybe for you this kind of stuff wouldn't be important...but to the rest of us and mainly those of us who live in the NYC area, this threat is VERY real...you live in LA, you have no clue what it's like...</p>
<p>this just happened a few days ago...do you not follow the news?</p>
<p>as a person who frequently rides the PATH train into the city...this crap hits home for me...</p>
<p>you should realize that an attack in NYC isn't just an attack in NYC...it's an attack on the United States as a whole and what we as Americans stand for. </p>
<p>have you ever seen the WTC in person? Have you ever been on top of the towers when they once stood tall above the greatest city in the world? Did you witness the aftermath? I have.</p>
<p>I'd suggest if you get the chance this summer... take the NY/NJ PATH train into the WTC station and look around...absorb your surroundings. Stand there and just observe...think. Just think about the 3,000 people who died on the ground you are standing on because of something so stupid. Think about that long and hard...</p>
<p>then get back to me and tell me this isn't a REAL threat...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ask yourself this question: What has provoked the United States and its attempt to spread democracy?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>its desire as a doctrine, religion, or belief to dominate.</p>
<p>(and the laughable ease with which people like you can be spoon-fed nationalist propaganda.)</p>
<p>The world's most complex computer can be beaten with a bucket of water. 9/11 was the bucket of water and American intelligence was that computer. Remember all the terrorists attacks that happened on the eve of the Millenium? No? Good. Because the West was on full alert at that time. This was before the dumbassed colour codes, before the bloated piece of pork that is The Department of Homeland Security and before the Patriot Act. </p>
<p>Is terrorism a legitimate threat? Sure. England has dealt with the IRA for decades and more recently the London subway bombings. Toronto (my city) was where they recently arrested 17 men suspected of planning to blow up God knows what, Spain, Israel, Bali (Indonesia), Mumbai (India), Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland and the list goes on. </p>
<p>Is it a big enough threat that I'm gonna start looking over my shoulder? I still take the subway everyday, I'll still travel across borders and I'll still shop at Aslam's Convienience when I need some zig-zags.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
its desire as a doctrine, religion, or belief to dominate.</p>
<p>(and the laughable ease with which people like you can be spoon-fed nationalist propaganda.)
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>wrong. </p>
<p>It was its right to protect its people and its way of life...as they both were and currently ARE under attack.</p>
<p>:edit: propaganda? I frequently visit these radical islamic web pages researching their ways and their beliefs...so unless you believe in some wild conspiracy in which the U.S. government is putting these websites up in hopes of stirring anti-muslim sentiment, I'd like for you to tell me how my views are distorted by propaganda.</p>
<p>Yes I have actually been to the WTC before it was attacked. I didn't make it to the top but I was there in awe of those huge buildings. I was in complete shock the morning I heard they came down because I had no idea anything that big could be destroyed so suddenly. I have family in Jersey right across from NYC (Secaucus to be exact) and visit every couple years. I have also been to New York since then (didn't have time to visit the WTC site unfortunately). Where did I say it wasn't a real threat? I fully believe it's a real threat and those 3,000 people should never have died. The people who did it should be brought to justice, screw them. Yes it is an attack on all of America, there's a reason why it's called the United States, not just the States. My only point is that life since then is still fairly normal. Yes it's different, yes it's in people's heads, and no one wants to live it over again. But the fact is, you can still ride the train across town in the morning. People can still go to work everyday and live normal American lives. This is not Baghdad where there is no train, your roads are getting bombed everyday, and heck you don't even have electricity most of the day. Americans are a resilient people and I believe we will prevail over these criminals. I just want to see more efficiency out of our the money and effort we throw at this, before things get really out of hand in the world.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Remember all the terrorists attacks that happened on the eve of the Millenium? No? Good. Because the West was on full alert at that time. This was before the dumbassed colour codes, before the bloated piece of pork that is The Department of Homeland Security and before the Patriot Act. </p>
<p>Is terrorism a legitimate threat? Sure. England has dealt with the IRA for decades and more recently the London subway bombings. Toronto (my city) was where they recently arrested 17 men suspected of planning to blow up God knows what, Spain, Israel, Bali (Indonesia), Mumbai (India), Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland and the list goes on. </p>
<p>Is it a big enough threat that I'm gonna start looking over my shoulder? I still take the subway everyday, I'll still travel across borders and I'll still shop at Aslam's Convienience when I need some zig-zags.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>The USA has been dealing with terrorists and their threats long before 9/11/01. Long before the color code system and the Patriot Act... </p>
<p>If you don't believe me, do a google on the word "Threatcon"...</p>
<p>The color codes were meant for dumb civilians like you and me... to make it easier to understand. It's purpose was more or less to make you more aware/alert of your surroundings and to be more viligant during times of crisis. </p>
<p>And you should continue your daily routines...as we all do.(riding the bus, subway, etc) If it happens it happens right? Well, don't you think it would be a good idea to minimize the possibility of these attacks happening?</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
My only point is that life since then is still fairly normal. Yes it's different, yes it's in people's heads, and no one wants to live it over again. But the fact is, you can still ride the train across town in the morning. People can still go to work everyday and live normal American lives. This is not Baghdad where there is no train, your roads are getting bombed everyday, and heck you don't even have electricity most of the day. Americans are a resilient people and I believe we will prevail over these criminals. I just want to see more efficiency out of our the money and effort we throw at this, before things get really out of hand in the world.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>But you see, that's just it...</p>
<p>Life is normal as usual because of our awareness and because we are paying such attention to these threats. The gov't is taking this stuff very seriously. If we were to just say "Oh well, it's not as dangerous as Baghdad in NYC, I won't worry too much...odds are against something happening to me".</p>
<p>That's the same kind of mentality that was predominant leading up to the attacks on 9/11...</p>
<p>the fact of the matter is...it can happen anywhere, anytime...</p>
<p>and it's not a matter of IF... it's a matter of WHEN...</p>
<p>I pray every day that we never have to deal with suicide bombers going around the streets of New York carelessly destroying as much civilian life as possible...although I'm afraid it's only a matter of time...</p>
<p>I am not saying that we should discontinue our normal daily activities... I am simply saying that you can not underestimate the threat we face (which you seem to be doing)...</p>