<p>I mean when you get to college. Unless a student chooses engineering, math, or some kind of science major, what are the odds that from age 21 until death they'll ever need to solve a single trig or Calculus problem? </p>
<p>I was forced to take college Calculus (no high school AP calc in my day at my public school). Thirty years later, I've not encountered a single situation in which I've needed to know any advanced mathematics, at work or in my private life. I obtained an MBA later and didn't need it then either. </p>
<p>Why all the emphasis these days on calc, trig, geometry, when a kid might want to major in theater or English? How about simply making sure kids can add, subtract, multiply and divide WITHOUT A CALCULATOR? I've run into kids who can't do basic math without a calculator, i.e., in their heads. It's shocking, especially when you find out they're top students taking all kinds of advanced math WITH CALCULATORS.</p>
<p>My son graduated from a top university. He didn't have to take ONE math course at all. And he didn't take calculus in high school either. He did take statistics in HS. I'm not sure that math is a universal requirement for all college students. I should add that "back in the day", I also took no college math courses (although I did take statistics for research purposes).</p>
<p>I use trig, but then I'm an architect. You need calculus to understand the theory behind some statics, but in reality you never use it. I think you should learn calculus for the same reason you read poetry, because it's beautiful. :)</p>
<p>On the flip side, if you are going to be a math, or CS major, what's a chance that you'll ever need to write a 10 page paper about nothing. Liberal arts education means you'll be knowledgeable in math, science and humanity. Many good LAC have core requirements. I was a math major at Colgate, but I was required to take philosophy and religion. It was the hardest course for me, but it was also one course that I remembered the most. </p>
<p>Liberal arts education gives you a well rounded education. It pushes you out of your comfort zone and teaches you how to be a problem solver (not the solution). It gives you a good foundation to pursue different careers later on in life. It is very different than a pre-professional education. I am a big believer of liberal arts education.</p>
<p>My daughter has a liberal arts degree - she had pre-calculus in hs but was required only to take Statistics for her degree. She also only had to take one science course.
Math teaches you how to think and problem solve.<br>
If a Liberal Arts education is supposed to be well rounded then why not require Math and Science?</p>
<p>It is very easy to pick one subject (out of your major) and ask why?</p>
<p>Take History, for example. Besides those of us who live in the past LOL, who would ever need to know such stuff if you are going into accounting or engineering?</p>
<p>Only an accountant or engineer who wants to be a well-rounded citizen who understands that learning about social events of the past is the only way to understand how the social events of today (government, culture - including pop culture, etc.) will play out. Today we are seeing the effects of yet another asset bubble that can trace its roots to the Dutch Tulip Bulb fiasco. An ACCOUNTANT who understood more than numbers would understand that we go through these asset class bubbles regularly and would be more wary of placing his clients net worth in a single investment.</p>
<p>An engineer who understands political trends will understand the difficult hurdles to be overcome getting energy resources developed, with different groups having different access to power with different priorities. Knowing what will and will not fly will aid him/her in developing plans that are more likely to be supported legislatively.</p>
<p>Going back to math, if you can't do the math, how do you know when your investment portfolio is not doing well, or if that annuity is a ripoff? All too often we make critical bets on things we can know more about. No we cannot understand all the latest medical technology, but having a good general science background will give you an idea of what is real science and what is snake-oil. And most science is built on math.</p>
<p>I have a business degree and make my living managing data. Two of the last "elective" courses I took were on Drama and Probablility Theory. And believe it or not, I've used what I learned in both in my job over the years.</p>
<p>They require the class because it may end up being useful. Right now I'm a first-year at UC Berkeley. I'm taking Discrete Mathematics and in doing so have learned some basic logic and set theory. Those two concepts have spilled over into other parts of my life. Learning the formal rules of logic has helped me to make better arguments and thus write more thorough and persuasive essays. Meanwhile I've been contemplating language in terms of set theory. It's all about having a new lens through which to view the world.</p>
<p>It is a mental activity and discipline. However, many school programs can be gotten through without it. So this may be something unique to the school you went to. On the other hand using being exposed to it (using it or not)may have made you the success you are today. Stuff gets integrated into the mental set and provides resources that are not directly identifiable as coming from a given discipline. The caculator issue is different.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I've run into kids who can't do basic math without a calculator, i.e., in their heads. It's shocking, especially when you find out they're top students taking all kinds of advanced math WITH CALCULATORS.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I haven't taken a math class where I used a calculator since AP Calc, so I don't know what kind of advanced math they're up to.</p>
<p>Not to mention I know plenty of engineers that are terrible at mental math, but they're still fantastic engineers. Do you think back in the day of the slide rule or abacus nobody ever had to look to them in order to do some simple problems?</p>
<p>Sometimes I wonder about those engineers...</p>
<p>When I took that Probability Theory class I mentioned earlier, I was the only Business major in the class. Mostly engineers, as it required the 2nd year of underclass math and at least 1 upper division math. Of course, I only had the first year of calculus that I had taken over 2 years earlier...</p>
<p>Unfortunately, most of them couldn't figure out the odds of winning the lottery if you gave them the jackpot for getting it right. I would have been a rich man in that contest. Now when it came down to solving the area under the a curve in an n-space distribution, I could set up the equations correctly, but wasn't as fast as the engineers pounding through the various integration algorithms - we didn't have calculators for such stuff then - or I would have set the curve. It almost killed me on the final exam, as this guy wasn't giving partial credit for setting up the equation.</p>
<p>And BTW, this is a top tier school I went to.</p>
<p>Maybe taking some of these courses that require certain types of analytical thought will make synaptic connections that will aid in other types of deep thought later in life.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>if you can't do the math, how do you know when your investment portfolio is not doing well, or if that annuity is a ripoff?>></p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I'm not sure calculus will help you with your investment portfolio:) DS DID take a personal finance course in college. He thinks that should be a required course for ALL students.</p>
<p>I was always a poor math student from high sch. onward. College Algebra and Statisitics were torture for me. DH, an engineer and great math student always uses a calculator. The funny thing is that now, I can do simple everyday math in my head waaay faster than him and he is always surprised.</p>
<p>I'm in favor of requiring some math as a part of a liberal arts degree, but I would stop at Stats and Algebra. </p>
<p>As for requiring people how to write (the length of the paper having little bearing on that), isn't that the major way that we're communicating right now? Isn't some knowledge of political science or history more important since, e.g., we're all going to vote but very, very few of us will have any use whatsoever for math beyond Stats? </p>
<p>We are participants in history, politics, and writing/communication, but very few will use anything past Algebra I and perhaps Stats.</p>
<p>My freinds and I always say that we became lawyers because we can't do math. All I do is multiplication and division on a calculator. When I'm trying to do stuff around the house thar requires measurement, I kind of wish I remembered Geometry better. Daughter is interested in fashion merchandising and the degrees all seem to require calculus. ????? </p>
<p>Some people have wildly different levels of intelligence in verbal abilities and math. If you talked to my sister, you'd think she was highly intelligent. If you read her writing, you'd think she was highly intelligent. But she almost didn't get her college degree (in Philosophy) because she couldn't pass Algebra. She passed on the third try (the max. number of times the school allowed students to take the class); the class was full of "last tries" like her and the teacher got them to understand it by having them play videogames and then relating it to Algebra. If she had not passed, should she really have been denied a college degree because of that?</p>
<p>Starting with the current 10th grade class, Texas requires 4 years of math for all high school students. My sister would not have graduated from high school if she had been subjected to such requirements. Her son is trying to get his GED but he can't because he keeps failing the math part. Some people are serously math-impaired. Should my nephew be doomed to a lifetime of warehouse work because he can't do math?</p>
<p>
[quote]
As for requiring people how to write (the length of the paper having little bearing on that), isn't that the major way that we're communicating right now? Isn't some knowledge of political science or history more important since, e.g., we're all going to vote but very, very few of us will have any use whatsoever for math beyond Stats?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>isnt physics the major way we are interacting with the physical world right now? and isnt economics the major way we acquire the food, clothing and shelter that maslow tells us we need to survive?</p>
<p>last i checked, a working knowledge of calculus is fundamental to actually understanding either subject. the reason: math is the fundamental LANGUAGE of our world. and much like the study of english, it is beautiful in its own right. </p>
<p>now, i guess one could argue that you dont need to understand calculus to learn that you shouldnt drive around a sharp bend in the road at 80mph. but why then do you need to understand political science to realize that a republican candidate generally supports some policies, a democratic one generally supports others and neither is likely to get much done?</p>
<p>you dont. the only difference is that american 'society' has deemed it okay to be innumerate. the punch line, of course, is that our innumerate leaders still cant figure out why american students perform so poorly on international math exams. maybe better math classes would have provided them with sufficient critical thinking skills to realize the problem is cultural.</p>
<p>this has long been a pet peeve of mine. we're into an era that glorifies math, that makes it clear that STEM is what makes kids smart -- not philosophy, or history or poli sci, or english, or art -- and that seems quite willing to throw millions of HS kids on the educational junkpile because no matter how well they do in other subjects they won't graduate if they can't pass four years of math, do algebra, or pass the math regents (or whatever end of schoolmath test a state gives). in california, i know, thousands of kids dont graduate HS just because of math. i suspect its the same in many other states,including NY. </p>
<p>yes, my DS is gradually working through his math difficulties. but despite being way above grade level in other subjects, he has consistently been denied educational oportunitie because of math grades and test scores. </p>
<p>there IS a tryranny of algebra, all reinforced by the mindless national chatter of how the US is "falling behind" because our kids arent doing math as wll as they do in singapore or china or india. well, there were a lot of brilliant mathematical minds working on wall street the last few years devising a lot of sophisticated financial instruments -- and look what its gotten us. </p>
<p>know some basic math, yes. but using it as an ABSOLUTE gateway subject for college in HS, or an ABOSLUTE requirement for college graduation is hsortsighted and will result in a massive waste of talent.</p>
<p>When my son was in 4th grade, we took him for an all day battery of tests The psychologist tested his "intelligence" in 16-18 areas. In one area he tested at 3rd grade level. In another area he tested at "12th grade +" level. Some people are blessed to be very intelligent in all areas, but I think that many of us are gifted inone area and below average in others.</p>