Why do people believe in God?

<p>Aquinas and Hobbes both defined God as the instigator of motion. Even if that were true, there’s no proof God has intervened since (unless there is and I just haven’t read an account of one instance of his intervention [?]). So if he played the role of instigator but no more, the “state of [the] system of matter” can be the only one that’s possible, leaving no alternative. How, then, can spirituality determine which is better if there’s only one?</p>

<p>I thought about going over to S-R to Control-F keywords of any point I should make to see whether mifune has discussed it at some length previously, but then I realized there were way too many pages.</p>

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<p>Like others, I completely disagree as well. I’ve written on this subject previously but I have no ambitions of reiterating my points once more.</p>

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<p>This is emphatically untrue and refuted by the moral tendencies of those who aren’t spiritual. Those who reach such a conclusion do so by mounding misunderstandings of the physiology of the brain upon misrepresentations or indefensible dismissals of the practice of obtaining empirical explanations grounded in material cause. It is commonly posited to fortify a theology grounded in the notion of a personal deity who created humankind for a reason and with an endowed sense of purpose. Alas, it is an intellectually bankrupt argument with no supporting empirical data and a uniformly defective logical structure. Sam Harris is a world expert on the neurobiological aspects of moral behavior and I would recommend that anyone with interest in the subject read some of his work (including his latest publishing). It is admirable to read works with an objective outlook on the matter, rather than the arguments propounded by ideologues who are mindlessly contented to tickle their brains with whatever they wish to believe.</p>

<p>As a side note, I think these discussions should be posted to the College Life forum, where one is bound to receive a much more intellectually invigorating discussion.</p>

<p>Often I just realize how… odd it is that we are experiencing ‘life’. I mean, the universe would work perfectly as it does without you or me experiencing life as an organism. That organism could easily exist without me having to experience what it goes through. So why are we here to live that organism’s ‘life’? Maybe that’s just my ego speaking. Sorry if that was worded poorly, if you understood it i would like to hear what you think about it.</p>

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Aristotelian teleology (which, for the record, no philosopher since has debunked in full) provides an answer. Indeed, reproduction is a biological process. The urge to reproduce is natural (or else, the biblical first two humans’ act contrary to God’s will is self-defeating). Hence, offspring exist by necessity.</p>

<p>reproducing is perfectly fine, it’s just that we tend to view ourselves as people who live our own lives. But what if our physical selves existed, but we just weren’t around to live that life? Are we needed? And if so, why?
Teleology seems pretty interesting, could you explain more? I tried reading about it and it doesn’t exactly address this issue fully</p>

<p>I am a strong believer in God.
Let me tell you non believers a few things.
It is almost impossible to describe God. How could I describe a taste of an icecream to someone who has never even seen it?</p>

<p>Let’s say God doesn’t exist. Then who created the earth? I know it is a trite question but all the big bang theories are only theories. If you can believe in theories, how could you not believe in God. Let’s take it to the extreme. You haven’t even seen your brain. And yet you believe and claim that you know what your brain looks like because others tell you or you have seen it in the book.
For Christians, the Bible is like a textbook. One can learn from it and the whole life of the individual is a challenge that one must defeat or overcome by using the bible.</p>

<p>God has infinite powers. And yet there are poor starving people. You might wonder why this is.
Here is a story I will tell you.
One day a young man went into a hair salon and made an appointmen t for a haircut.
While he was getting the haircut; the barber asked: “why do people believe in God? If there are God, why are there starving poor people? God must not exist.”
Then the guy didn’t know what to say. Then he prayed. Soon he saw a homeless guy and got an idea. He said “why are there people with messy dirty hairs? Barbers must not exist.”</p>

<p>The point is, the people are miserable because they didntgo to god, not because there is no God. Besides, who is to judge poverty is happiness anyways?</p>

<p>I am willing to answer any more questions. However I am not willing to argue.</p>

<p>I meant to say “poverty means no happiness”</p>

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<p>Religious adherents and the public at large typically have a very different understanding of what a theory is – not an unsystematic speculation or a reservation in certainty but a cohesive accumulation of observations, facts, and derived principles. The amount of evidence that the universe began from a singularity is overwhelmingly abundant. Also, I find it very curious how religious folks are always willing to advance the tenacious, and ultimately erroneous, argument that matter cannot arbitrarily emerge while entirely ignoring the concern of how a designer god, in all its complexity, materialized, including what mechanistic agency it uses to effect change, whence it derived matter, and why it is the slightest bit necessary when science has largely made a theoretical intelligibility of it all, without recourse to mythological explanations. For instance, Stephen Hawking, in his latest work, The Grand Design, made the claim, as part of the obligation associated with his profession, that the use of a god to explain the creation of the universe and anything else is a useless explanation bereft of data or material evidence, and utterly superfluous, much to the chagrin of religious ideologues. In plain language, the universe would not create itself under ordinary physical circumstances, but the negative energy of gravity counterpoises the positive energy associated with matter and its aggregation into variegated multiplex formations. For that reason, to quote Hawking, “the universe can and will create itself out of nothing.” A more rigorous explanation can be derived from reading the primary literature associated with M-theory. I think most cosmologists would emphatically agree that an indolent attraction to a deity in such matters is intellectually regressive, corrosive to an honest education of the public, and a predominantly impoverished and primitive bias of the human mind. Yes, the universe is wonderful and tremendous in its natural grandeur, but appeal to a deity is ultimately a very narrow-minded and colored perspective that distorts an objective reception of new evidence, observations, and deductions.</p>

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Ok I’m going to draw a parallel here, but according to Zizek (who only combined previous ideas, I’m sure, though I do not know of a predecessor of his who expressed the same view), we only view the way we do because that’s how we’ve been viewing, and we know of no alternative.

Every philosopher since Democritus has, to some degree, acknowledged psychosomatic interactions as the basis for everything–cognition, emotion, instinct. Hobbes is a firm believer in sense-perception, as is Locke (if you actually labor through his Essay). Immortality of the soul was a Socratic principle, but has been destroyed pretty darn thoroughly as a concept.</p>

<p>As for teleology, I don’t understand it fully myself. However, you should read the actual text (Aristotle’s Physics and Metaphysics). Basically, everything is either natural or artificial. Aristotle presumes everything has a purpose. It is easy enough to pinpoint the purpose of artificial objects; for example, the computer was created to assist humans in, true to its name, computing. However, when confronted with natural objects, and in particular Empedocles’s theory of evolution (that some animals coincidentally have features better suited to their survival–should sound familiar), Aristotle said that natural objects are and come to be by necessity. I think the example he used was rain. Rain does not fall to nurture plants or fill the oceans or even to satisfy thirst, but rather of necessity. In other words, it falls because it must, and that is how it is and always has been. </p>

<p>Though Darwin’s studies have suggested that, indeed, some animals coincidentally have better features, Aristotle has him covered on that too. To Aristotle, coincidents happen by chance. Results from chance do not fulfill the purpose the of-itself event was intended for, so, for example, we didn’t develop into bipeds because bipedalism afforded us advantages over quadrupeds; rather, we became bipeds by chance, and then natural selection takes over. Additionally, chance is not a force derived from the divine. Events of chance occur because they attach to necessary occurences. For instance (again, his) we go to the market to buy food because we’d otherwise starve (or eat grass, who knows). While there, we run into someone whom we did not expect to meet but nevertheless showed, perhaps to buy food as well. There, you demand repayment of a debt (how convenient). Both persons’ presence at the market can be attributed to a natural urge.
Main point: do not confound the cause for the effect (see his Posterior Analytics).</p>

<p>Similarly, the Prime-Mover hypothesis is extremely lacking because by Aquinas’s definition, a single atom would have been God, thus eliminating the need to ascribe events subsequent to the single atom to an imperceptible deity. More specifically, we do not come to be autochthonously. We exist as products of reproduction, and we only question our existence after we already exist. We only live our own lives, as we are living it (and not that we’ve ever had a choice in the matter, because we are either alive or dead).</p>

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Not directly parallel. You can describe the taste of an ice cream if you’ve tasted it, even to someone who has never. Vanilla ice cream is creamy, Blue Bunny’s embedded chunks of chocolate are as hard as rocks, etc.</p>

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The images in the book were probably produced through or based on an MRI or a similar scan. But this can be used against you. Do you only believe in God because others have told you that he exists?</p>

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What about the girl who died because her parents prayed to God and refused to allow her to see a doctor? They definitely seeked Providence.</p>

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Rousseau: Origin of Inequality (though he is not the first).</p>

<p>btw mifune, whenever you have the time, comment further on my vocalization thingy if there is anything more to say</p>

<p>I am surprised that people are even responding to dhs etc. etc etc.'s post.</p>

<p>^ Yes, I can understand why you feel that way.</p>

<p>Believe what you want. I cant believe so many people spend like hours writing super long responses. Alright with the silly religion questions.</p>

<p>Yes, I’m sure that they literally spend hours…</p>

<p>In sci-v-rel we did… :P</p>

<p>In my defense, it took hours to read some of mifune’s post series, not to mention write a response.</p>

<p>dhs, the problem with your arguments is that they are formulated in such a way that people are only going to accept them if they already have.</p>

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<p>Well… Multiple accounts of a man who died and was then seen walking, talking, and eating by many different witnesses, such witnesses then being willing to die horrible deaths rather than admit that their story was false… Not to mention experiences of many people since then, of varying levels of credibility.</p>

<p>But as I said to dhs, these arguments would only be accepted by those who already have, since it is always possible to create an alternate explanation. A more relevant argument is this:</p>

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<p>If the universe is deterministic as you describe, then there is not only no morality, there is also no reason.</p>

<p>If your brain deterministically takes one state, while my brain deterministically takes another, both determined by the initial state of all the matter in the universe, then what grounds are there to claim that one deterministically dictated state correlates with any “truth” more than another?</p>

<p>The only conclusion that does not invalidate humans’ ability to reach valid conclusions is that the human brain is not deterministic.</p>

<p>I believe that this is best explained by the existence of an immaterial “soul”.</p>

<p>Mifune seems to believe that a non-deterministic brain is possible in a deterministic universe.</p>

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<p>If part of your definition of truth is that all things must have a material cause, then obviously you will conclude that this is indeed the case. But it is this assumption which is on trial here.</p>

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<p>Fall of '11 :P</p>

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<p>Neither correlates with truth any more than the other, for truth is independent of human perception. (Pythagoras, Plato, Locke)</p>

<p>"it is…necessary that whatever happens should be determined without any exception according to laws of nature…this concept of nature is confirmed by experience and must inevitably be presupposed if there is to be possible experience, which is coherent knowledge of the objects of sense in accordance with universal laws. --Immanuel Kant: Grounding for the Metaphysics of Morals</p>

<p>“[Presentations] belong to one another by virtue of the necessary unity of apperception in the synthesis of intuitions; i.e., they belong to one another according to principles of the objective determination of all presentations insofar as these presentations can become cognition–all of these principles being dervied from the principle of the transcendental unity of apperception.” --Kant: Critique of Pure Reason</p>

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An immaterial soul would be immortal and unlimited in abilty. However, upon the body’s death (cessation of bodily functions and perception), the “soul” likewise would cease to receive input of any kind.</p>

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For a logical proof of all things must have a material cause, read section 27 of Immanuel Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason, Part II: Transcedental Logic</p>

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<p>The problem is that most materialists claim that their disbelief in the supernatural is based on logical grounds, when according to their belief, there is no such thing as logical grounds.</p>

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<p>Not necessarily… To be immaterial is not necessarily to be omnipotent.</p>

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<p>This being the reason why we do not see ghosts wandering around all the time. Though according to some religious beliefs, souls eventually recieve a “body”.</p>

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<p>Can you give me a summary of his argument? I don’t know much about Kant.</p>

<p>But regardless, there are two possibilities:</p>

<p>1: All things have a material cause.</p>

<p>2: Not all things have a material cause.</p>

<p>If the first is true, then morality is irrational, since it makes no sense to hold someone responsible for something that they could not have avoided, and reason itself is irrational, since there is no reason to believe that the state of part of reality arbitrarily defined as “antonio’s brain” should reflect any truth about anything.</p>

<p>For morality (or reason itself) to be rational, humans must be capable of making choices which influence the future physical state of the universe. If humans were merely arbitrarily defined areas of the universe, this would not be possible.</p>