Why do people think the contract colleges "hurt" Cornell?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Cornell University
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<p>So I've seen an influx of trolls on the Cornell board recently (the same is true of other college boards - I think people are trying to hurt rival school images now that students are making their final decisions) and many of the Cornell trolls use the same argument: That Cornell is less prestigious, has a higher acceptance rate, and lower stats and is nothing more than a glorified state school....but here are my thoughts:</p>

<p>Cornell is a private college. There are a few colleges within Cornell that are "contracted" with NY State, but they are not "public" or "state schools"...but let's give the benefit of the doubt and say that they are indeed public. Then let's break it down and examine the private and public parts of Cornell individually. Starting with the College of Arts and Science, you'll find statistics similar to that of schools like UPenn in terms of stats, acceptance rate, etc. I think we can all agree that if Cornell dropped all of the other colleges and consisted of only the College of Arts and Science, it would look like the rest of the ivy league in terms of stats, size, etc and there would be no arguing over "the worst ivy," right?</p>

<p>Then, if we agree on that, lets look at the other colleges. The other private colleges include: Hotel, Architecture, and Engineering. The Hotel school is the best in the world. The Architecture school is one of the best in the world. The Engineering school is in the top 10 in the US. None of these are bad in any way, yet schools like Architecture and Hotel, despite being the top, have lower stats on tests and GPAs since these aren't as important. This goes into Cornell's "average" and brings it down, but so what? I'm sure Julliard students don't have the highest SAT scores either, but no one says "Oh you go to Julliard, their SAT is in the 500s.." because we KNOW that's not what they look for in their students. </p>

<p>Moving onto the contract colleges (aka the "public" colleges), we have ILR, CALS, and HumEc. Again, none of these are typical schools. CALS is arguably the best agriculture program in the US, and ILR and HumEC also succeed in their fields. So what if they're "public"? UC Berkeley is also public, yet no one uses that as an argument as to why Berkeley sucks. These are all very good colleges within their fields, receiving aid from the state of New York does not diminish that. </p>

<p>So adding all of these together, it looks something like this:</p>

<p>Selective, high scoring private College or Arts and Science + specialized schools with lower scores, but best in their respective fields + very highly ranked "public" colleges = Cornell</p>

<p>or, in other words....</p>

<p>UPenn + Julliard + Berkeley = Cornell</p>

<p>If no one attacks any of these schools on their own, why is it that finding a unique college that combines all of these things is suddenly "the worst ivy?" It makes absolutely no sense, and I think some people (read: ignorant people) simply don't know how to classify Cornell, so through THEIR frame of reference, it misses the mark. For someone obsessed with test scores, they are unable to separate out the different colleges and realize that they don't all have the same mission. If people were to realize that Cornell is really more of an academic city, a combination of multiple highly ranked colleges each with their own goals, they would start to see things how we Cornellians do: that Cornell is one of the best schools in the world, providing a unique experience that no other college has been able to replicate.</p>

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<p>The problem with comparing Juilliard to Cornell is that they place the most emphasis on the audition and talent of the applicant and can care less about test scores (they don’t even require it). You still need very high test scores to get into the contract colleges unless you have a hook. And Juilliard consists of the most talented musicians/performers in the U.S. I would say their ability and their given field far exceeds the ability of applicants and students in the “specialized” school.</p>

<p>And Cornell is criticized for the guarantee transfer program, because students in community colleges are attending Cornell who really don’t belong their academically. (Need LazyKid in this thread)</p>

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<p>Because they are insecure snobs.</p>

<p>Let’s just count CAS for the sake of argument. Where would CAS alone rank among the Ivies?</p>

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<p>Penn, Brown and maybe Dartmouth are all on the losing end of this argument, with or without contract colleges.</p>

<p>A lot of kids from other Ivies like to bash on Cornell programs like the Hotel school, but the truth is, half of them wouldn’t even get past the 1.5 hour interview. I also don’t see too many Ivy league grads creating international brands such as Burger King and Marriot…When all is said and done, I have to admit, I still get a good chuckle out of the SUNY Ithaca joke hahaha</p>

<p>and Saugus, you can’t be serious…you call those people “insecure snobs” and then go on to ask “Where would CAS alone rank among the Ivies” ?? Only a couple weeks after making a thread implying that Cornell was the worst Ivy and was your only choice left…what a joke…</p>

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<p>First of all, I would like to say “Congratulations!” for getting me to log in again. </p>

<p>Now, from what I recall, you’re a community college transfer DarkIce, so a lot of the bashing probably offends you, which is why you’re posting this.</p>

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<p>The Hotel school actually has the lowest scores of any college in Cornell, but I guess since they require a different skillset, it’s somewhat excusable. I don’t know why you’re bringing Engineering and Architecture into the discussion. NO ONE picks on those 2 schools when they diss Cornell; they pick on the state schools and Hotel. Also as a side note, Architecture actually has pretty high SAT averages and is definitely not the school bringing Cornell’s overall selectivity down; and of course Engineering has THE best average stats. </p>

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<p>Let’s look at how many other top schools/Ivies have colleges in Ag, ILR, and HumEc – None. So, of course, if ILR is competing with Podunk University’s ILR program, it’s going to be ranked 1 in the nation; it would be a shame if it wasn’t.</p>

<p>I dont know where you’ve been, but UC Berkeley gets a lot of flak for being a state school. Not as much as Cornell, since it’s not constantly being compared to the other Ivies, but it does have its share of haters. </p>

<p>Receiving aid from NYS isn’t the problem here – it’s the “obligations” that come with that aid. You see, there’s a reason why half of ILR seem to come from New York. There’s also a reason why they have guaranteed transfer programs, 40+% transfer acceptance rate, and their student body is comprised of nearly 50% transfers. It’s cause they receive millions in grant money from NYS, and so are obligated to favor NYS applicants at the cost of its selectivity. Please tell me with a straight face that there’s nothing wrong with half the student body being community college transfers from New York. I highly doubt you could. This goes for the other state schools at Cornell as well. </p>

<p>I’m not saying everyone in the state colleges are sub-par. I know some brilliant people who would put me to shame. The problem lies in that their obligation to favor NYS students heavily lowers selectivity, which is where the hating comes from. Just go through the 2012 transfer thread right now and compare it those of the other Ivies. Not only do we have like 3x the number of pages, but the majority of transfer applicants to Cornell are community college/state university students who have terrible high school stats and SAT scores too embarrassing to report (students who have no business applying to the Ivy League), while the majority of applicants to other Ivies are from top schools. Yet, Cornell’s state schools accepts these people in droves. I heard that Yale accepts 1 cc student as transfer every like 6 years; Cornell’s state schools accept hundreds every year. Yes, some of them are extremely smart late bloomers, as I’m sure you are DarkIce, but most of them come here and drop to the bottom of the pack cause they weren’t cut out for Cornell in the first place. That’s the problem.</p>

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<p>^so the fact that Cornell willingly abides by these terms in order to pursue its effort in providing high quality education to a larger demographic base, somehow makes Cornell inferior to other schools? Would it be beneficial for Cornell to drop the 3 state-funded programs in order to boost the school’s selectivity and overall ranking?</p>

<p>It seems that many proponents of the Cornell-bashing argument make this implication without realizing it. The whole theme of elitism, exclusivity and bigotry in America’s higher-education system has become quite archaic and out of touch with the international community. Other countries like China, Japan and Germany don’t have this attitude when it comes to education and quite frankly, they’re all kicking our ass right about now…</p>

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<p>Some people are just idiots. Plain and simple. </p>

<p>I’d be willing to bet the average salary 10 years from now of those who complain about the contract colleges will be significantly lower than Cornell’s average in general.</p>

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<p>Please don’t tell me you’re serious. The elite universities in Japan, China, and South Korea are much more selective than Cornell. You realize the top schools in those countries have acceptance rates <1%, and you can ONLY get in through pure smarts (merit based)…race, money, status, “good life story”, etc. barely matter, if at all, in these schools. Not to mention the job prospects and elite status you get attending those schools is much bigger than what you get from Ivy Leagues here. Asia is MUCH more prestige obsessed than America.</p>

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<p>Coming from a state university prospective transfer I presume. Of course you’d be offended.</p>

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<p>@Wavedasher</p>

<p>Wow, trying to make this personal are we? And no, I don’t go to a state school (not that there’s anything wrong with those who do)</p>

<p>Let’s settle this with a game of SSBM. Bo3, tournament rules.</p>

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<p>The contract colleges make Cornell a much better school than it would be without them. I don’t know who the heck people think they will be interacting with in the “real” world, outside the rarified air of academia, but you will be shocked by how many of those people will have gone to state schools, come from nowhere, worked their way up through the proverbial “mail room.”</p>

<p>You will see that being overly entitled is not seen as an asset in the world, where things need to get done by people who are willing to do what it takes. Many of these people who are quite capable of making things happen in the world are not going to have gone to an “Ivy,” at all.</p>

<p>Be with real people. When you need to throw a big party? It will be good to have connections in the hotel world. Etc… Get to know all the people around you in college. One of the great advantages Cornell offers you is the opportunity to interact with all sorts of people and do all sorts of different things and find out who you really are. It is a better place for having the contract schools. You will be better graduates if you let go of some of this prestige-iness. </p>

<p>There’s not one single career you could want which will be negatively impacted by having gone to Cornell. There are a lot of careers you want which could be negatviely impacted by forgetting to thank the receptionist and learn her name, by forgetting to tip the maiter’d, by forgetting how to write a thank you note to the florist, who happens to be married to that CEO you think is better than he will ever be. :wink: If you learn nothing else, learn the name of the guy or girl who is taking your money at the cash register when you are at Cornell. Who knows who they will really end up being.</p>

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<p>That’s only because their average population density is ~25 times greater than ours… and the “elitism” you’re talking about is on a completely different level. Top colleges in those countries actually make an effort to provide a quality education to as many people as they can…for example, Peking University, which is commonly regarded as the #1 school in China, has hundreds of sublet colleges that bring the same education and the same teaching methods to people who aren’t smart enough or rich enough to make it to the actual University. Can you imagine Harvard or Yale EVER setting up community colleges to educate a different, more broad spectrum of people?</p>

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<p>Most elite universities offer classes to the community and have extension programs. Harvard certainly does.</p>

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<p>Stop trolling. It’s so childish to bash someone else’s interest and education.</p>

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<p>It’s one thing for trolls to start these kinds of debates. It’s another for regulars to invite this. DarkIce, you deserve a kick in the butt.</p>

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<p>^ lol, sorry norcalguy. I have enough confidence in myself and my college not to care about the idiots that respond negatively to this thread. I just wanted to share my beliefs regarding Cornell to those with minds like Wavedasher’s.</p>

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<p>I’ve moved on from SSBM since I made this account, but glad to see you got the reference. </p>

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<p>You make it sound like people like me act like this in the real world. We don’t - plain and simple. However, I do appreciate the rest of your post. I agree with a lot of your points. All I’m saying is there is nothing wrong with becoming a bit more selective; at the least it’ll get the other Ivies off our backs.</p>

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<p>You do know that not anyone can apply to the top colleges in Asia right? Unlike in America where you just pay the application fee. </p>

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<p>Yes, I can. Like previously mentioned, Harvard has an extension school and many other elite institutions have online classes. That’s much different than what Cornell is doing.</p>

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<p>norcalguy, just wait for Lazykid, oldfort, and monydad and this thread will be complete.</p>

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<p>Calling everyone who disagrees with your opinion an idiot isn’t smart; I’m sure that strategy will get you far in life. Why don’t you actually address some of the problems I proposed if you think I’m such an idiot, instead of getting angry because you’re a transfer yourself and auto-dismissing anything I say.</p>

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<p>As a community college student myself I’m disappointed in this thread. Can you really blame Cornellians (and consequently students at other Ivy’s) for disliking the contract schools? Let’s take ILR for example:</p>

<p>I personally love labor relations, but let’s assume a student wants to transfer to that school. To be somewhat competitive, all they really have to do is get a 4.0 at a community college (which despite popular belief, varies in difficulty WIDELY between community colleges), have decent extracurriculars and you have a decent chance. The problem with this is two fold:</p>

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<li><p>If you divide these 4.0 CC students into groups, the dumber group will more likely than not struggle at Cornell. This will be seen by other Cornellians who will then associate the students with the contract college, exacerbating their hatred. </p></li>
<li><p>There are students who as freshman were denied despite having near perfect stats. Why do that if you’re going to accept a bunch of community college students? </p></li>
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<p>The two reasons above are probably the main reasons to why the contract schools are frowned upon. Cornell should accept community college students, but should be more selective. Get the truly elite community college students (eg. Jack Kent Cooke Scholar Nominees, Coca Cola All-State team members, other prestigious two year school awards) and setup programs to ensure that these students succeed. Amherst does a fantastic job of making sure their 2 year school transfers succeed. IIRC the median gpa for Amherst transfers was like a 3.6, which is high when you consider 80% of the transfers are community college students.</p>

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<p>Lazykid actually hasn’t been seen since January; he’s probably really busy.</p>

<p>Anyway there is a brutal discussion in the RD discussion thread for the class of 2016 on this board where the above posters mentioned (lazykid, oldfort, and norcalguy) attacked the topic. read that first before opening up a new debate</p>

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<p>Yea, I wouldn’t reopen this debate again. I think the contract colleges add a lot to Cornell and are an unique and welcomed part of Cornell. But, there are aspects of admissions I’d like to see improved.</p>

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<p>Agree with pretty much what has been said. Love the contract colleges, dislike their methods of selection half the time (taking some underperforming kids from instate/ ccs who just come here to drink), which they’re obligated to by their status as contract schools.</p>