<p>During the last college process, I had a friend who graduated salutatorian of his high school (400+ students). He was of Asian descent and had a 2360 SAT score and participated in tons of extracurriculars. He applied to Columbia, Princeton, Cornell, and Dartmouth, and was rejected by all four of them. Yes even Cornell, supposedly the least selective. As far as leadership positions, he was the VP of a local youth group and secretary of the math league. </p>
<p>We have all heard stories about how Ivies reject tons of perfect GPA or SAT students each year, but this guy seemed to have unbelievable bad luck all around, even after working hard in high school and people with lower scores were admitted. His essays were pretty good, and were reviewed by teachers and peers. Not sure about recs, but he was accepted to other prestigious non-ivies.</p>
<p>Just wanted to start a conversation for people at this stage, who find themselves having put in everything possible and yet find themselves falling short.</p>
<p>If the student in the example got into “other prestigious non-Ivies,” then what exactly is the issue? Those four schools he was rejected from, with the exception of all participating in the same ATHLETIC league and all having very low admission rates, don’t really have all that much in common, do they? (Okay, maybe Princeton and Dartmouth are similar, but Columbia?)</p>
<p>It’s a numbers game to a great degree. With the exception of hooked applicants (and this student had none), there may have been anywhere from five to fifteen students of comparable merit competing for a spot in each class. It’s basic math really.</p>
<p>I honestly don’t understand how such accomplished students don’t get that. Do they just never look up the admit rates to these schools?</p>
<p>mom2collegekids, I meant perfect as in a perfect fit for those schools based on who they admit. This student was not a totally perfect person or student, but worked hard in school… and you say he should pay for that by being rejected? What is the point of working to improve your grades or SAT scores, if Columbia and Princeton randomly select from their applicant pool? </p>
<p>It’s naive to think they randomly select. Interviews, essays, grades, test scores, ECs are all part of the equation. Sometimes there are just better candidates and it’s not just test scores. </p>
<p>@LucieTheLakie, I’m sure that you know this, but going to an Ivy League is quite a different thing than going to any other school. And part of it is the name recognition. But this student applied to these schools, because he felt like he belonged there. I know that he had visited Columbia and fell in love with the place. I agree that it is a numbers game… but for some reason the “numbers” of this student were ignored. </p>
<p>Having gone to the same school, I saw that people with fewer extracurriculars, and far lower test scores were admitted… At this point if the college system has turned into who has got the most musical talent, or who has been to Mars, we are creating a very low educational minimum for our kids.</p>
<p>I mainly wonder why athletes are held to a different standard than non-athletes at ACADEMIC institutions. Students are (or at least should be) going to college to learn. So why should the football captain from my school with no ECs other than football, a 3.7 UW GPA, 29 ACT, and a course load with very little rigor be recruited to Harvard (one of the best academic institutions in the country) when my friend who is a girl who wants to go into engineering, who got a 35 ACT, 750+ SAT 2s, who is the valedictorian of our extremely competitive school (I’m at rank 9 with a 4.47 weighted), and who has strong ECs in math and science fields got deferred Early Action. It makes no sense to me.</p>
<p>@tomwantssnow, I agree 100%, Harvard is not going to be recognized as an all-around athletic powerhouse… so why waste their time? It does seem like there is little room for those people in college who simply excel at their schoolwork, and are not star quarterbacks…</p>
<p>I think LucieTheLakie has it just about right. The Dartmouth admissions guy said something like “We think 80% of our applicants would do well at Dartmouth if admitted. So we try to decide who you’re going to be if you come to Dartmouth.” Now I think it’s rather arrogant of him to think he and his team can assess a teenager well enough to predict that, but that is certainly the approach and the mindset at most top schools, not just ivies. And then they have other goals of trying to get a good mix of geographies, personalities, ethnicities, family backgrounds, etc. etc. And frankly, I do think that the end result is indeed somewhat random once you’ve determined the “highly qualified pool” based on academics and scores.</p>
<p>(FWIW, my son didn’t apply to Dartmouth, so no sour grapes here.)</p>
<p>OP, I’m an Ivy (Penn) alumna, so please don’t lecture me about the inherent superiority of the Ivy League over every other school out there. That’s just absurd. HYP? Okay, fine. But the other five schools? No. </p>
<p>Again, the Ivy League is an athletic conference, so of course athletics is important to them, especially football. What are you proposing, that they eliminate athletics altogether (eliminating the “Ivy League” in the process!) or only field their teams post-admissions?</p>
<p>Like it or not, many alumni of Ivy League schools care greatly about the success of those teams, and many people believe wholeheartedly that athletic prowess is every bit as important as standardized test scores and GPA. I don’t personally agree, but then again I never encouraged my high-stats kid to apply to Penn or any of the other Ivies either, because the odds of his getting admitted were so low, it just seemed like a waste of time, effort and money. </p>
<p>Numbers don’t tell the whole story. Sometimes two students with the same “stats” are miles apart. From what I have seen, the SAT and GPA are not sensitive enough measures to distinguish between stellar, but run-of-the-mill good students, and students who have a lot more to offer. To be sure, both kinds get into tippy-top schools, but I trust that more of the latter get in than the former. When a strict teacher at a top high school hunts you down to write you a recommendation, and this is a teacher who left a competitive field to teach, you’re not getting a generic recommendation and it will probably carry some weight. When an alumna of your competitive high school (and of the HYP for which you’re applying) says that she cried reading your essay, you’re probably a better-than-average writer. When you leave your house when it’s dark, and come back when it’s dark, for four years - just to have a chance at an education that comes close to meeting your needs (but is really geared towards students with a different set of goals), and still graduate in the top 5 students of your class, admissions committee takes notice. This is a true example of a close friend. Don’t underestimate your competition. </p>
<p>Its a crap shoot, as a president of one of those schools said to me at a business meeting once, you need the gods of admissions to smile upon you to get in.</p>
<p>There are so many fabulous students and believe it or not, there is someone more fabulous than your friend. Those schools look for evidence of passion about something, anything that has burned long within the student. ( Not “tons of extracurriculars”) I once met the daughter of a colleague who was “incorrigible” her mother’s words. She was always trying to help some poor person in need. ( so much so that she invited one in to eat with the family at a restaurant at the age of 10) When she was older (13) she went on a church mission and fell in love with the people of Nicaragua. Instead of just volunteering, she (on her own) solicited support from major corporations to support her desire to establish a clinic there. She got donated materials, even office space. She was in the top 20 in her, class, was on the debate team and captain “because its so much fun” not to round out her application Her guidance counselor thought she should apply ( no one from her school ever went to an Ivy, even though it was in a prosperous area of northern Minnesota)… She could have an intelligent conversation about the benefit of cell mediated transport in delivering protein drugs to a patient as well as the economic problems of delivering health care to children in rural populations. Decent SAT scores. Accepted to all HYP and she was surprised and still thought it would be best to go to the University of Minn. </p>
<p>As an Ivy Alum (Penn) as well, I told her that I was happy they found her among all the strivers who only work hard with one thing in mind, to attend an IVY. She wanted to learn, become a Doctor and save the children of the world… she just may . </p>
<p>She is a pre-med major but still on the debate team, because she loves it…not because it was going to get her into med school… I wished she was my kid, and I’m single…</p>
<p>@TigerCC2014, as I mentioned, this student was involved in quite a few extracurriculars, all of which they were absolutely committed through. Perhaps my one paragraph description seems too generic a description, but he has done some pretty incredible things, and not at all meant to get into college. I just think its unfair that the bar is placed so low for the “academic” part of college admission, and so high for things like sports or musical talent… It sort of defeats the purpose of working hard in high school, to be completely honest.</p>
<p>There are applicants who have a 2400 SAT and get rejected, let alone 2360. Would a lot of the kids who’ve gotten rejected from the Ivies over the years done well at HYP etc., if accepted? Probably. But there’s not enough room, so some have to get rejected. Besides, you don’t know his whole application; maybe his essays were weak, or his recs weren’t as fantastic as others.</p>
<p>The Ivies are great, sure, if you really want the name recognition, but it’s a bit ridiculous to put them on the pedestal you and others put them on. They’re schools. Just as prestigious non-Ivies are schools. Just as state universities are schools. Not to be cliche, but Bill Gates and other successful people dropped out of school, and I’ve heard of Ivy-League graduates who are unemployed. So I would think that someone who goes to a prestigious non-Ivy or state school can do just as well as a Harvard grad.</p>
<p>@Jsssaab1: As I stated, this person was involved in quite a few extracurriculars over his four years, but he found a few that really stuck with him. Unfortunately, they may have seemed too generic, or not “extraordinary” enough for these schools, but to be rejected by ALL of these schools with those marks is quite a ridiculous testament to the sad state of our educational system…</p>
<p>@fluffy2017, just to be clear, he did dabble in several extracurriculars, but focused on several and was a leader in a few. He participated in several math and science contests, not for college, but for that is what he loved to do. And as someone who read his essay, I can attest to how much that came across. So essentially, everything that these schools typically look for was fulfilled - not on purpose, but because he just fit… I guess the only conclusion that can be drawn is that it is a total crapshoot not worth the HYP (pun intended).</p>
<p>@CE527M Bill Gates did drop out of school, but not just any school. He dropped out of Harvard. You will find MANY more dropouts filing for unemployment or working at minimum wage jobs than you will find Ivy-league graduates.</p>
<p>Not to say that I disagree with the point you were trying to make, however, just the argument you used to support it.</p>
<p>@tomwantssnow True. Steve Jobs might be a better example, since he dropped out of Reed (and according to what the OP seems to think, anything other than Ivy-league isn’t good). </p>