Why do seemingly perfect students get rejected from Ivies?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Do you think any of the other applicants to these schools were lacking? All of the applicants to top schools have top grades, top scores, ECs, etc.
The thing is he probably looked just like a lot of the other applicants, and there are only so many slots available.</p>

<p>Sometimes you just don’t win the lottery.</p>

<p>And maybe all the slots for students who had his gpa and test scores and were VP of youth group and secretary of math league were already filled (actually, what does the VP of a church youth group or the secretary of math league club actually DO that would be interesting to admissions people?)–and they were looking for a student who instead works for a political campaign, or works in a community food bank garden, or writes poetry.</p>

<p>Or maybe they liked the student with slightly lower grades and/or scores, who works many hours outside of school to help her family. I know one student who delivers newspapers in the morning and bags groceries in the afternoons/evenings/weekends --she doesn’t have time to be the VP of the youth group or attend math league after school, nor does she have $$ to pay for SAT prep classes.</p>

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<p>I’ve posted some version of this a gazillion times, but here I go again…</p>

<p>The Ivies (and other top colleges) don’t even purport to claim the best students or the most deserving people. Instead, it’s all about building a class. Think of it as if it were casting a high school musical. Lets say it’s “Guys and Dolls.” The director is NOT going to pick the 20 most musically/dramatically talented kids who try out and make them the cast. If (s)he did that, there might be 17 females and 3 guys. There might be too many altos and not enough sopranos–or vice versa. So, the director is not going to pick the 20 most talented people who audition. Instead, (s)he is going to focus on choosing people to play particular roles. </p>

<p>Maybe when the auditions begin, there will only be two boys with voices deep enough to sing “Sit Down You’re Rocking the Boat” who show up and try out for the part of Nicely Nicely. One of them is going to get the part. Meanwhile 12 girls audition to be Sarah. Obviously, their odds of getting the part will be a lot worse. Indeed, it may well be that the boy who gets the role is less talented than one of the girls who tries out and doesn’t get any part in the show. </p>

<p>The director is going to be influenced by things other than talent too. Maybe Stacy’s mom helped out making costumes for past productions. The director knows if Stacy’s in the show, her mom will help again. If Stacy isn’t in the show, her mom isn’t going to help with costumes. So, Stacy’s odds of getting a part are going to be good. </p>

<p>Maybe Annie seems very talented during the audition but she’s new to the school and the director isn’t sure how she’ll be performing in front of a live audience. Kaylee has been in several past productions. She’s great on stage. Her voice isn’t quite as good as Annie’s, but casting her is less of a risk. However, she’s five inches taller than the boy the director wants to cast as Sky Masterson, the male lead. Moreover, the director knows they despise each other. </p>

<p>That’s how it is when you apply to college. Colleges don’t just pick the most academically qualified applicants. If they did, they might end up with too many engineering students and too few studio art majors. They might not have enough students to form an orchestra; nobody plays a couple of the instruments. They might be 70% female–which might affect who applied NEXT year.They might not have enough players for the lacrosse or the field hockey team. </p>

<p>You’re not competing against everyone else in the applicant pool; you’re competing against the people who can play the same role.When you’re the white or Asian-American kid with 2 US born, college educated parents, from an affluent suburb, particularly one between Boston and DC or near Chicago or LA applying to Ivies, you’re competing against a lot of kids who can play that same role. Whether you get in depends on the OTHER roles you can play.By this I mean the things they can do and/or an unusual perspective they can bring. For some kids this is easier: they are a top athletic recruit (and the best football players in the US rarely want to go to Ivies and often don’t have the minimum stats required, so the pool is less competitive); they are URMs; they have served in the military, etc. Others show that they are unique in other ways. (Anyone ever read the essay by the 4 foot 11 inch female applicant who wanted to be a child psychiatrist?) As admissions officers go through the stack, you want them to think "If we don’t admit this kid, nobody else we admit will offer the same things (s)he does. "</p>

<p>Reality is that without any special effort, all of the colleges on his list will end up with youth group officers and math league secretaries. They will have lots of students who participated in math and science contests. All have lots of kids of Asian descent. (A higher percentage of the Asian kids will be interested in math and science, which doesn’t help either.) I’d hazard a guess that at least 50 kids in the applicant pool at each of these colleges wil have each and every one of these attributes or something similar,e.g., they were vp or treasurer of the math league or prez of the youth group. . Among those that offer these things, the ones who will get in will be those who have something else or really excelled on a national level or at least the regional level. They WON the contests your friend participated in. They are Intel top 10 or they received several regional science fair awards. They are USAMO qualifiers or they were on an ARML team that won an award. Or they did something else- say they performed as a stand up comic. (There are lots of stand up comics in the applicant pool but I suspect few are Asians who were youth group leaders and math league secretaries.) Or maybe they grew up in Iowa, participated in 4H and won a prize for having grown the best hog–along with doing everything your friend did. </p>

<p>It may seem unfair to you but …think of the high school musical. Is it really unfair that Bob, a chubby guy with a bass voice gets cast as Nicely Nicely whereas Amanda, who is a lot more talented didn’t get a part at all if SOMEONE has to play the role of Nicely Nicely and Amanda just isn’t right for that role? </p>

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<p>Excellent analogy, @jonri. I would add that this business of building a cast would apply to many selective colleges, not only Ivies.</p>

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<p>There are more…far, far, far more “perfect applicants” than there are spots in the Freshman class. I am fairly confident that over half of the students who apply to Ivy League schools (and their peers) have near perfect academic and extracurricular credentials coupled with a great application (essays, recommendations etc…) As we all know, Ivies accept between 5% and 15% of their applicants. Ultimately, many “perfect” applicants are going to be rejected.</p>

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<p>OP is looking at this only from the high school perspective, what impresses other hs kids. Adcoms want you to fit their needs and wants- and that’s a whole lot more than how things fared in your one high school. </p>

<p>This was linked on a thread that got little attention- it’s a good start: <a href=“http://blogs.wm.edu/2014/03/04/overheard-in-committee-testing-isnt-everything/”>http://blogs.wm.edu/2014/03/04/overheard-in-committee-testing-isnt-everything/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I don’t disagree at all with what’s been said already but I do want to point out that there aren’t actually hordes of “perfect applicants”. I think the number of people who earn a perfect score on the SAT in a single sitting is really very small. It’s kind of a pet peeve to hear about the HUGE numbers of people with perfect SAT scores being rejected because in fact you’re talking about ~300 kids each year. </p>

<p>It’s more honest to say, as Jonri and others did, that the schools in question aren’t looking for perfect applicants or even the brightest kids. You may not like that but it may make the result easier to understand. </p>

<p><a href=“I”>quote</a> simply say that when I say “Harvard,” one does not immediately think of a college basketball superpower. One imagines a place of academic rigor and a hub of achievement.

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<p>That’s what you’ve got to get past and move on. Find the place that offers an excellent education and have faith that the talent and hard work will take you far beyond the college years. </p>

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<p>OP, how would you decide who gets accepted. Remember the National Merit program has 7846 finalist, around 9000 semifinalist and over 36000 commended. </p>

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<p>Try to turn it around: “perfect applicant” is not all about stats. Super stats are just super stats. There are many more things you either convey in the app - or not. Mr or Ms Perfect Stats can still blow an essay. Many examples. </p>

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<p>@lookingforward, I read this students essay, and trust me he did not “blow the essay” He used the same essay for NYU, BC, and others, and was accepted to them all. Now unless he blew the short supplements for all 4 schools (highly unlikely), I don’t think that is a valid excuse.</p>

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<p>@dadoftwingirls, Simple: unless it is a athletically inclined institution, the focus should first and foremost be on merit. Second on the kinds of activities they were involved in. Third their recommendation letters. Fourth their essays. Period.</p>

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<p>@lookingforward, I find it hard to believe that no one has a need or want for a student with those grades. Since when have high grades become a taboo in society? What do you mean “fared in one high school”??? You can only go to one high school at a time so obviously the time there is critiqued. Impresses high school kids? To be completely honest, most of today’s kids wouldn’t be impressed with educational accomplishments anyway because it has been demonized by this sort of rhetoric in society.</p>

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<p>@ptigers, I tried explaining in several of my responses, but maybe it didn’t get across to you. Nothing this student did was to get into an Ivy League. Absolutely nothing. He worked hard because that was the sort of person he was. He had leadership qualities, and ambition. Not sure if he had a “special talent” but his application was not “manufactured” in any sense. </p>

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<p>I think jonri nailed it. Criticize the HS musical analogy if you like–it’s imperfect. But read what the admissions directors of these schools actually say about their admissions process. They’re really not about selecting only the students with the highest SAT scores and highest GPAs, however much you may think those are the only markers of merit that should matter. Yes, top SAT scores and top GPAs improve your chances, but they could easily fill their classes many times over with top SAT scores and top GPAs if that’s all they cared about. They really do care about “building their class,” which means not enrolling 1,500 freshmen with virtually identical backgrounds, profiles, and interests, no matter how strong their GPAs and test scores. They’re under no obligation to you or anyone else to admit only the students with this highest GPAs and test scores, and that’s not something they’ve ever claimed to do. If you don’t like their admissions policies, don’t apply.</p>

<p>As for athletics: so what if Harvard applies different admission standards to basketball recruits than to unhooked “good students”? They don’t owe the “good students” anything. And it might be perfectly rational for the Harvard admissions committee to decide that a kid with a quick-release perfect stroke and deadly aim on a 3-point jumper, who has the potential to lead Harvard to multiple Ivy League championships and multiple NCAA tournament appearances, and who also happens to have the academic chops to succeed at Harvard (if not the top stats), will actually bring much more to Harvard’s freshman class than a white or Asian kid from an affluent suburb who is into math and science and has excellent HS grades and SAT scores and secondary leadership positions in a few student organizations. The former applicant is a rare gem for Harvard; the latter, a dime a dozen.</p>

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<p>OP, you are a high school kid. You can’t begin to compare your assessments to those of adcoms who do this year after year. Maybe you really liked that essay on his favorite place or an experience of failure. Maybe your were impressed by his activities. Unless you get a grasp on what adcoms look for, of course you won’t see it.</p>

<p>This isn’t peer review. Not by a long, long stretch. The essays are not for English or history teachers. The ECs aren’t looked at to see who was BMOC in his own hs. It’s all about the sum total of what comes through, to an adcom representing that college and its wants and needs, its context, challenges and community. </p>

<p>And, for a Harvard, there are 35,000 apps for just under 2000 seats. Same sort of competition for other Ivies. </p>

<p>Quit saying they don’t value high stats or they are looking for some imperfection. It’s simply NOT all about stats. Yes, they like achievement. And then what comes next is critical. Princeton used to report those detailed figures of what SAT tiers got in or not. Brown still did, last time I looked. Yale explains what it looks for. It includes a “look back,” of course. But also a look forward. As we say, think like an adcom.</p>

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<p>You seem to know more about your friend’s application than I knew about my own when I was applying… Just saying.</p>

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<p>Also, your friend sounds boring. Asking yourself (or “for a friend”) why you didn’t get into “any Ivy Leagues” is the most boring thing imaginable.</p>

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<p>About 25% of Harvard’s entering freshmen get perfect 800 scores on the SAT-M. About 25% of Harvard’s entering freshmen get scores of 790-800 on the SAT-CR. Among Cornell engineering students, 25% enter with perfect 800 scores on the SAT-M. </p>

<p>The number of students with perfect 2400 scores is small, but of course a larger number scores 800 on at least one section, and a much larger number scores very close to that on at least one section. Perfection on at least one section, or very high numbers on at least one section, would not be too uncommon at any of the Ivies (including Cornell). </p>

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<p>… However, on the flip side, about 25% of Harvard’s freshmen enter with scores under 690 on the SAT-CR. About 25% of Cornell’s freshmen (including hotel and ag students) enter with scores under 640 on the SAT-CR.This may be the crux of the OP’s complaint. His friend is a salutarian with a 2360, a raft of ECs including a couple of leadership postitions, and (in his opinion) good essays. Why should he be shut out of 4 Ivies, and WL’ed by Chicago, when so many students with much weaker credentials (on paper at least) get admitted? </p>

<p>Presumably, many of these lower scoring students are “hooked” (athletes, URMs, legacies, students from underrepresented states, etc.) We can debate the fairness of holistic admissions, but as others have pointed out, private institutions have a very free hand in setting and applying their admission criteria. Judging from their application volumes, admission and yield rates, 4y graduation rates, etc., their formulas seem to work pretty well for the colleges (if not for all the unhooked applicants).</p>

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<p>In addition, for Cornell, there’s AS, Engineering… and the rest. Applying to ILR or Ag isn’t nearly as difficult as getting into AS. And I bet your friend applied to AS or Engineering, not ILR or Ag…
The “short supplements” can be onerous and while they can’t be “blown”, they do tell a story and compose a picture. There can be as many as 8-12 supplements, depending on the university (not always of course).
I think that your friend’s problem is that he may have been like many other students. The Ivy League want a balanced class, so that if students are similar in stats and activities, they’ll only pick a few. In addition, your mistake is to think highly selective universities will be impressed with a 2360. What that score tells them is 1° student took test many times 2° student likely from upper-middle class family (since that type of score is best at predicting, not college success, but family income.) There’s no difference between 2160 and 2360 that the Ivy league really pays attention to - if you break 2100 and have all A’s, they’ll start looking at the rest. In fact taking the test many times is a minus because you appear to focus on the wrong point of education (a 2360 at first attempt is basically impossible but if you reached it after 4 attempts, especially if you had had 2250 as your 3rd, that wouldn’t look good. I’m not sure you understand the reasoning but I hope you friend did, since not understanding this type of thinking would definitely appear in his application and would be detrimental to him.)
High school students may get mired in minuscule differences that aren’t meaningful, ie., valedictorian vs. Salutatorian, 3.9 vs. 4.0, etc. because that’s what they define themselves as within their world. In the Ivy league world, you have “brilliant”, “excellent”, and “the rest”. If you’re excellent or brilliant, you will make the first cut and the minutiae don’t matter. Adcoms will then move on to the task of crafting the class from among these students and those who meet their need will be chosen.
BTW, even if you’re a basketball star, you better have the stats to succeed. Unlike many D1 schools, the Ivy League doesn’t have special provisions for super low scoring athletes. They have to meet the school’s standards - most have excellent SAT scores, excellent grades AND excellent athletic skills.
Is your friend really smart? Absolutely. Could your friend have succeeded at the 4 colleges that turned him down? Probably. But so would have 2/3 of the applicants, as per admission deans from these schools.
In the end, the Ivy League isn’t a “right” for all bright students in the country. With 40,000 high schools there are at least 40,000 students as bright as your friend. They can’t possibly all get into an Ivy League university. it’s the sad reality - these universities get tens of thousands of amazing applications from the entire world and very few ever make it.That’s what 1:20 odds means.
Your friend has many choices and I hope there are at least two that are affordable and that he likes.
Note: admissions are supposed to be sent March 27, so how does your friend know he’s not been admitted to all 4?
What about you? Where did you apply? Are you happy with your admissions?</p>

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<p>Honestly, what are SAT’s a measure of? Your ability to study for a test? Same with AP’s I suppose (never wrote them)</p>

<p>There are intagibles that come accross in reccomendations and essays that trump test scores and even seemingly nice EC’s.</p>