<p>My younger son who was by no means really ready for college level writing got a 5 on the Global History exam as a sophomore. He also got 5’s on APUSH and AP Euro So I don’t think it’s a question of being hard, but that some students really haven’t been taught to write well or that history just isn’t their strong suit. He’s always loved history and has done a fair amount of history related reading outside school. He swears that reading all the background info for Civilization 4 computer game is what got him through AP World. (He did not get 5’s on AP Physics C or AP Calc BC.) :)</p>
<p>BTW he came to really disrespect his AP World teacher who predicted he’d get a 2 on the exam. The teacher made up a lot of facts and ran out of time and ran a lot of Saturday sessions in April trying to get the kids caught up. I think sometimes it is the teacher’s fault - it’s too hard for the kid to catch up and if they don’t use AP Practice tests or review books the kids in the course may not even realize how behind they are.</p>
<p>Mathmom–my DS said the same thing!! They used to play Jeopardy to review for tests and it was usually my DS against the rest of his class–all thanks to a computer game. :D. Now, the rest of his classes…not so much.</p>
<p>Steve of course the school matters, egad…ap classes from school to school vary widely. To think otherwise is naive and in fact narrow-minded and cruel thinking.</p>
<p>My girl at a college prep Jesuit school will have a mich different experience that a kid in appalacia in a school without the resrouces, good library, free study books, computer access, etc</p>
<p>I am a bit shocked that some people have no clue how hard it can be for students in disadvantaged schools.</p>
<p>As for failing, many colleges don’t take all your ap credits, so by senior year in may, when you know where you are going, getting an 5 on a certain ap test means nothing with regards to credits at that particular college so spending time studying for an ap physics test when you are going to be an English major and the ap physics tests won’t get you out of any classes there is no point in studying for it. I certainly wouldn’t.</p>
<p>Seahorsesrock–if a school in Appalachia is so financially strapped and the students are that far behind, why are they offering AP classes to begin with and that is the point. Maybe it’s different there but the lower end schools here don’t HAVE AP classes. Getting into college for the students at those schools is a challenge and presents an entirely different set of issues, however, while AP classes do vary countrywide, they still are supposed to cover the same material and have certain resources available to the students to be a recognized AP class to start with.</p>
<p>Our kids are taking very few AP tests yet have a full schedule of AP classes. The schools they are considering either don’t give credit at all, use the scores for placement or in most cases, don’t give credit in their majors but will for classes outside of their majors. They are mainly taking the various history and Lang/Lit tests and Calc BC test. The rest would be a waste of time and money because they won’t help them in college at all.</p>
<p>I seriously don’t think all the kids who fail AP exams are from poor rural areas. Saying things like that don’t address why the majority of students who fail AP exams do.</p>
<p>I never used the library for my AP classes, and I rarely used the internet, except to print out some notes or receive some communication about class. </p>
<p>But I don’t think very many AP students are from very poor rural areas.</p>
<p>And even as a physics major, many schools require you to have English as part as a core. I actually don’t know of any major that doesn’t have a English requirement. And it’s very wasteful that so many people are able to afford $70 tests and then sleep on them.</p>
<p>I am saying to dismiss the school districts in analyzing why students fail ap tests is shortsighted and dismissive of the wide range of schools, opportunities and programs throughout the country</p>
<p>In our public high school system, we have two IB high schools. The rest rely on AP classes to demonstrate that they offer “rigor.” There are no pre-requisite grades or screening and many of the AP classes have upwards of 40 students. My daughter attends a private high school and while most of the rigorous classes are defined honors, we do have a few AP classes. However, in order to enroll in the math or science AP classes, you must have a history of B’s or A’s in honors classes or A’s in regular classes. For APUSH and AP English, you’re required to write assigned topical essays as well as demonstrate that you received A’s previously. It keeps the class sizes smaller and allows the kids to go deeper in discussion. My understanding is that our public schools can not deny any kid to take AP if they want to take it. Thus, you can have parents driving kids to take classes they really aren’t prepared for and you could argue that the large class sizes bring down the enitre group.</p>
<p>To give you an example of how my district is doing, the average score (CR+M) score for the school was 941. These students have the option on 5 AP classes last year and the state has demanded increases in AP and dual-credit offering as part of the push to graduate in 3 years. So how many students do you think will pass the AP exams in that environment? It is not necessary for our measurements that students pass only that they take the exam.</p>
It firmly believe that it makes every difference where the student comes from.</p>
<p>If AP classes are supposed to have nationwide standards, then why do some teachers have students with a 95%+ rate of 5’s? Why do some schools have students that make almost all 5’s on nearly every exam they take? If every school was perfectly standardized like you said, then wouldn’t it make sense for each class to have the same statistical distribution of scores at a local level as there is nationwide? This is obviously not the case, so why is it not possible for the reverse to occur - situations where teachers and schools that get 1’s across the board? There is obviously SOMETHING causing this disparity in scores, otherwise, schools everywhere would have equal distribution of scores, no?</p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong - a strong student will be able to succeed in any position s/he is in (like your kid, I’d imagine, congrats on the crazy smart kid), but for most kids, their socio-economic situation matters for a huge number of reasons.</p>
<p>Edit: You didn’t say that AP course were perfectly standardized, sorry, that was a pretty bad strawman I made. But the point still stands - you even said yourself that courses are supposed to be standardized - it doesn’t mean that they are. I’m just trying to say that even though standardization is the ideal, that’s not really what actually happens, you know what I mean?</p>
<p>I just failed my AP Spanish Lang exam with a 2, so I’m qualified to answer this now.</p>
<p>The ‘AP curriculum’ that was taught all year in my class was ridiculous. A week before the exam we were watching Spanish movies (with English captions, mind you). We rarely did any work in the class, which was conducted 95% in English. So when the test came, well, it wasn’t pretty.</p>
<p>But I do think languages are different since they rely on multiple years of knowledge. 4 years of spanish went into my 2, and none of the years were particularly well taught. For academic classes the tests are almost comically easy to at least pass, its generally possible to scrape by with a general knowledge of the subject and a lot of BS.</p>
<p>AP Spanish is a problem if you are not a native speaker. There are native spanish speakers taking the test in 7th grade with no prep and scoring 5s while others who spend 4 years learning spanish are getting 3s and 4s. The competition curve is severe and most students give up expecting a 5 when they take the test. From what I understand, the listening part usually destroys the non-natives.</p>
<p>AP Spanish was one of my hardest classes at school. It was very intense, and a lot of times, kind of unfair. For example, the rubric tended up assign 5’s to letters that were almost a page long. I would write more than that, and the teacher gave me a 3. Stuff like that. But by the time the exam came, I think I was very prepared. I was making solid 70’s in class, so I think that should be about a 4. So I think for the Spanish exam, you can’t do well without preparation.</p>
<p>what difference does it make where the student comes from? If they are enrolled in an AP class, the school feels they should be a strong enough student to do well in the class. AP classes are supposed to have nationwide standards so kids can pass the tests. </p>
<p>Ugg…still can’t figure out how to do quotes on this board or bold. To respond to the quote above:</p>
<p>Looking at the 2009-2010 one, I looked at page 45 of the pdf where they have a table.</p>
<p>234, 017 of all 11/12th grade students were economically disadvantaged. Out of those 38,148 took an AP exam. 12, 275 of the students made a 3 or higher. </p>
<p>298, 550 students were not disadvantaged and 78, 385 took the exam. 46,423 made a 3 or higher.</p>
<p>So you can see that a MUCH smaller number of economically disadvantaged took the exam. 32 percent of them passed it. For those not disadvantaged, many more took the exam and 59 percent of them passed it. </p>
<p>momknowsbest3-the point is, those kids shouldn’t be in AP classes to start with OR the curriculum should support passing the tests at higher rates. It’s the school’s fault when there is no control over who is in the AP classes, not the kids. Then, where are the parents and why are the kids failing in school…it isn’t an AP issue. It’s great the kids want to take more challenging classes but the material still has to be obtainable for their skills. An example would be trying to teach calculus to a 1st grader, they are not physically capable of learning that material because their brain isn’t mature enough nor have they had the background to be able to work the problems. There is a reason the educational system is set up the way it is and it has to do with how kids mature, physically and intellectually. Of course you are going to get the outliers that don’t fit the “norm” but for the most part this is the case. Pushing kids too far beyond what they are intellectually capable of handling doesn’t do anyone any good—and without getting political, the biggest thing that is wrong with NCLB, it expects the impossible.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t even even argue that these students shouldn’t be in the classes. As is debated constantly on CC, lots of kids go to school that may not be ready. The exposure to Calculus AB will help them in their calculus class the following year. Same with the AP English sequences will help on SAT CR scores. I saw CR scores go up over 100 points after their first semester with a great English teacher. Was she great enough to get 5s out of the class? Unfortunately not all were as well prepared, bu it made a difference. For most kids in our area APs are the only places to get this exposure. Even if they do not get credit, they are getting a taste of more meaty curriculum and that, in turn, is going to better prepare them for the GE classes in college.</p>
<p>Yeah the listening part on the Spanish exam was insane, the ones I practice during school were easier. But I nailed the essays. And the reading comprehension…maybe like 65% lol </p>
<p>One of my kids got a 2 on the Calculus BC AP exam. He had 800 and 790 respectively on the Math SAT I and II in 11th grade, and at the time had never gotten anything less than an A in a math class in his life until Calculus BC, or less than a 4 on an AP. So it would be hard to suggest he didn’t belong in the class. It wasn’t an issue of the class being bad, either. The teacher (who had a Physics PhD) was very old-school and demanding, and a tough grader, but there was nothing wrong with that, and my kid (and the rest of the class) generally worshiped him. Plenty of kids in the class did well on the AP. </p>
<p>It seemed to be just a question of my kid not getting everything he needed to get in the class, and then panicking a bit on the test. He started out well, but had more and more difficulty as the year went on. Years before, a math teacher had predicted that the same child would have increasing difficulty with math as he got to higher levels, and that proved to be the case. He wound up having a similar issue with calculus in college, doing well at first and then struggling in the spring. It didn’t keep him from doing well overall in college, including in calculus-based statistics.</p>
<p>Both kids got 3s on the Government and Politics AP test. Their school offered a year-long Government & Politics class. It was very popular and very challenging, with a great teacher – just a great class all-around, at least in my opinion, based on looking at the syllabus and occasional assignments. What it wasn’t was a class that emphasized preparation for the AP test, and I didn’t hear of anyone doing better than a 3 in either of my kids’ classes. Since the class itself was great, and most of the students who took it with my kids did fine in demanding colleges, I have to conclude that the problem was the AP test.</p>