Why do some people object to merit-based aid?

Parents Forum
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<p>logosprincipal,</p>

<p>Bravo, extremely well said. However, I'm sure there are a few that will have a rebuttal of some sort.</p>

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<p>Whhaaattt?!</p>

<p>You think low-income families mostly choose to be poor? How interesting.</p>

<p>Penalizing middle income kids? By ensuring that those who have need as defined by federal or institional methodology get need-based aid, instead of merit-aid, which does DISPROPORTIONATELY go to more affluent households??? That is no way to break the cycle of poverty or ensure that higher education can be had by all.</p>

<p>And, what's wrong with state schools????</p>

<p>Wow.</p>

<p>PS--BTW, prestige came in because of this partial post from Crazyla: </p>

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<p>Choosing to be poor is different from making poor choices that lead to poverty.</p>

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<p>No, it does not, especially if merit-aid displaces need-aid. Outcome would be generally the same for low-income kids whether by choice or from poor decision making. </p>

<p>How does one choose to be poor exactly? And why would the two be different?</p>

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<p>I suppose some people choose to be poor because they don't want to be in the "rat-race" of trying to make a better income.</p>

<p>There are plenty of choices that lead to poverty such as not applying one's self in school, drug and alcohol abuse, making poor choices about who you marry or create children with, spending money foolishly, etc.</p>

<p>I don't think that there is anything wrong with many state schools. My daughter attends one and is very happy there. However that is not the topic of this thread.</p>

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<p>when you talk about "tiers" aren't you talking about "prestige"?
or what criteria are you using to divide schools by tiers?</p>

<p>Say we have two students- one whose parents weren't able to attend college and they make $60,000- a year- over the national avg but still middle income. Their EFC is $15,000-
After taxes they have about $38,000 and they still need to put some in retirement- because of some bad investments that are worth less than they were 10 years ago. are they going to be able to spend almost half their income on college? If their son is admitted to a school that meets 100% of need- then they only need pay out the $15,000 ( ignoring the fact that the need will be met by loans and workstudy not just grants)- but more likely, he will be attending a state public school and they will be paying out at least their EFC.</p>

<p>Another student and her EFC is $40,000, her parents only make $100,000 and would rather just pay $15,000 , so she ends up at a public school as well. However, because she is a NMS, she recieves a nice bonus of not having to take out any loans to pay for books and expenses, and participates in the honors program giving her access to profs that normally only grad students see.</p>

<p>I don't understand the attachment to "top tier" schools and I also haven't seen evidence that students who qualify for need based aid have lower stats than those who are paying retail.</p>

<p>Even students who don't qualify for any need aid- and aren't able to find merit scholarships can do things to make a college education attainable.
Take AP or running start classes in high school to get college credit- making your time in college shorter.
Apply to a military academy- those are free.
Earn money summers to apply to tuition
Work as an RA to get breaks on room and board
Work during the school year-
Go somewhere you don't need a car or ins.
Work for a year before college to earn money-take a break in the middle to earn more money.
Work for several years until you are old enough to be declared independent from parents for financial aid.
get a job working for a company that reimburses for education- some companies don't even care if it is related to your job-they just want workers to continue their ed.</p>

<p>You can either realize that you have choices- and make decisions that expand those choices, or you can have a pity party and fixate only on things you can't afford and complain about someone less deserving taking your piece of the pie.
I completely understand that parents just want their kids to do well- that it is frustrating to be told to save money in their name, and then when it comes time to take it out- to be penalized more than if you just kept it in your name in the first place. We have been told to save money for college- and that it was going to be expensive- but we are also told that "money is available" to make up the difference-
I know that most people don't want money to be taken away from low income students and given to students who don't qualify for aid- but their kid has got their 'heart set on" a school that only gives need aid, and they hate to tell them they can't have it.
But we have several threads on merit aid- some schools that even offer total merit aid for some students- giving most students lots of ways to go.</p>

<p>Nobody ever promised life was going to be fair or make sense- but we can take where we started and move forward- even if we aren't moving as fast as we would like- its better than spending energy on staying in the same place.</p>

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<p>Actually, some of the posters to this thread do let rankings dictate what a better school is defined as--look at the previous posts.</p>

<p>It is less likely that one would go from what is termed here as 'middle-income' to poverty, than it is to go from being poor to affluent. You kow why???</p>

<p>Because poverty is a cycle...poverty can be dictated by social norms or values....poverty can be dictated by less funding for public schools, by inferior health care, by higher borrowing rates, by fewer opportunities, by congressional redistricting, by the former Jim Crow Laws, etc...</p>

<p>Jeez, even country clubs try to sometimes keep out those that are different than themselves....hence the dues, interviews, etc...but they have reasons that they use to justify the inequity.</p>

<p>It is usually not a choice to be poor unless you have another stream of income....but that would make one independently wealthy rather than poor, right?!</p>

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<p>Isleboy,
I don't see how my post conjured up prestige. Is prestige being in a setting with other students that are equally as bright and the curriculum consistently challenges them academically? Is prestige wanting to get the best education that you are qualified for, knowing that certain schools can offer more opportunities for your future than others? Again, not all states have schools with great honors programs.</p>

<p>Students like the ones I mentioned above, should not be penalized because their parents incomes don't fit some federal formula that, at best, is totally unrealistic.</p>

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<p>Crazyla:</p>

<p>The same criteria affect the poor and the affluent at their respective schools. </p>

<p>You used the term 'lesser tiered school' in your post. I did not. BTW, USNews classifies in tiers...</p>

<p>Again, saying not all state schools have 'great' honors programs is a definitional. Great is subjective...just like using the term 'middle-class', especially here on CC.</p>

<p>Right, the students you talk about should be rewarded via merit-aid. I got that. Again, merit-aid disproportionately benefits affluent kids, rather than low-income ones.</p>

<p>IB.</p>

<p>PS--No one school can insure anything. And, a better school is not always the best choice for everyone. It's incumbent on the individual to do what he or she must given the circumstances.</p>

<p>PPS--Here's your quote: '...bright student from such a family who has worked hard all the way through now must choose to either go into extreme debt to attend a school that will challenge them intellectually, or settle for a lesser tiered school to ease the financial burden. Meanwhile you have students with lesser academic stats getting full boats to top schools with need based money...' The latter does not happen often, unless you mean to use test scores as the definitional.</p>

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<p>"Another student and her EFC is $40,000, her parents only make $100,000 and would rather just pay $15,000 , so she ends up at a public school as well. However, because she is a NMS, she recieves a nice bonus of not having to take out any loans to pay for books and expenses, and participates in the honors program giving her access to profs that normally only grad students see."</p>

<p>And why did she get this? Because she deserves it based on her academic accomplishments. If the person in your first example had equal academics, then they should get the same. There has to be some reward for achieving high academic status, regardless of income level.</p>

<p>And no tier does not mean prestige, not to me anway. I don't care what "tier" a school is, I care about their academic reputation in the area of study that my child is interested in. You can't tell me that it makes no difference on a child's future what school they attend, whether it be going on to grad school or onto work.</p>

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<p>Crazyla:</p>

<p>AGAIN...NMF is cool but has traditionally been a scholarship program before schools started using their own funds for merit-aid to NMFs...I'm one as well, but, it does not ENTITLE me for merit-aid necessarily. Why? Because, I've had more opportunities, had a PR review for the standardized test, went to an affluent public elementary and middle school, and then a private HS. And, my parents made what would be deemed here as middle-class money at least on CC: between $80-150k. We have savings, that will cover four years of college, compiled by my parents when they had no money.</p>

<p>As for the girl....her family must have other assets/investments/property. At least she can go to a state school. Some needy kids cannot even do that because the school does not guarentee to meet need (usual for public colleges).</p>

<p>Do I think I deserve the merit aid? Nope. I'd rather someone who worked hard to get the assistance if they need it. As for the SAT scores, I think colleges are starting to recognize that the SAT is socio-economically biased. That's why I believe Mt. Holyoke, Bates, Hamilton, F&M, Pitzer, Bowdoin, Holy Cross, Lawrence U, etc....should be commended.</p>

<p>Just my opinion.
IB.</p>

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<p>And no tier does not mean prestige, not to me anway. I don't care what "tier" a school is, I care about their academic reputation in the area of study that my child is interested in.</p>

<p>thats great because then she will look at a wider range of schools including those that are affordable. :)</p>

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<p>I agree with Emeraldkity....it's about fit.</p>

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<p>Having a lower income is different than being poor or in poverty. People make choices to lower their income (EFC) all the time. Many are excellent choices. Couples who choose to have a single income rather than dual income. Couples who choose to retire early. These people qualify for more need based aid based on decisions. </p>

<p>As Isleboy said, unfortunately few applicants for need based aid are poor or in poverty. I'm not sure why we are talking about the cycle of poverty. We are talking about taking merit aid away from the middle class and giving it to someone who demonstrates merit rather than need. </p>

<p>Some people believe that whoever has the most need should get the money. I don't see a big difference between the need of a family that earns $75000 and one that earns $100,000. I doubt if the family earning $75000 bumped up to $100,000 if that extra money would be spent on tuition. There are many things...like retirement, health care costs, etc. that one must cover before paying for an expensive college. Many students go to the expensive schools because it isn't costing them a lot more than state schools. If it did, even if they made more money, they would go to state schools.</p>

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<p>IsleBoy:</p>

<p>Parents do NOT have their salary adjusted with regards to their socioeconomic background. Parents are paid what they deserve for a job they perform. </p>

<p>The same rule should apply to the kids: "get what YOU deserve", namely, awards based on performance alone.</p>

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<p>Isleboy, that's my point, not all "middle-income" kids have had the private high school, PR review etc. And not all "middle-income" families have had the same circumstances where they have been able to save enough, or have just gone into that higher income bracket. The point is that the federal guidelines are too rigid and don't take many other circumstances into consideration. And many people on this board generalize in areas such as high stats = due to being privileged. Your lucky your parents were able to save enough to send you to the college of your choice and if that were our situation, I would certainly deny any merit aid. How many kids do your parents have to fund through college? And I agree it is aabout fit, just so happens that the "fit" happens to be at schools we can't afford because they don't give merit aid.</p>

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<p>I don't really follow this.</p>

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<p>TanCat, </p>

<p>Hear hear.</p>

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<p>Anyone who has attended their high school reunion can see the results of poor choices in the lives of the people who they attended school with. Everyone attended the same school with the same educational opportunities. Many were from families that made more money than average, but the children (now adults) are low wage earners largely because of choices that they made. Others worked hard and made good decisions and are reaping the benefits of that. Certainly there are instances where poverty comes upon a person because of a health crisis or something else beyond their control, but I contend that most poverty is a result of poor choices.</p>

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<p>That is a VERY good point. I went to an all girls Catholic High school. Everyone came from middle to upper middle classes. All but one or two came from intact homes. Yet, at my high school reunions it is clear who made responsible choices and who chose to "party hardy" their way thru life. There are a few (thankfully few) that just made bad choices. Some made incredibly stupid choices in spouses (red flags waving strongly before the "I do's". ) And.... it wasn't just one "bad choice" that these girls made, they made bad choices over and over again. It's a shame when people "throw away" the gift of being from a good family and receiving a good education.</p>