<p>I also take exception to the assumption kids with high test scores "bought" them with an expensive prep class. My DS's PSAT and SAT were very high and he never took a class. He prepped out of a $20 book we bought him. We could have checked it out from the library. Has anyone ever proven those classes are better than books? To which Isleboy will say..the poor don't have someone to encourage them to check out the book from the library..and to which I'll say... we aren't talking about the poor kids. For the most part, they aren't getting the need aid.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <blockquote> <blockquote> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p>It is a false assumption that the more affluent kids are the smartest in the schools and therefore end up getting all the merit $$ at colleges.<<<<<<</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Yes, by slyly changing DISPROPORTIONATE in all the posts that make you ill, to ALL makes it false.</p>
<p>However, if ALL (a word you used, and a debate technique) is replaced by DISPROPORTIONATE (my usage, as you've pointed out in my numerous posts) makes it true.</p>
<p>Of course, I assume that those towards the high end of the 'middle-class' range as defined here (by 80-150k), are not truely middle class by objective standards. It is a theoretical, so that you are not seen as priviledged and, therefore, diserving of merit-aid. Again, wow. </p>
<p>And, it is interesting that you keep trying to belittle a teenager, while at the same time ignoring some of the poster who have been here on CC for a long time who have helped many kids (i.e. Sybbie and Emeraldkity). By ignoring other thoughtful adult posts, and focusing on not wanting to hear alternate opinions or clarifications leads me to think that you may want validation. I understand the need, just ask any teenager.</p>
<p>Please read, at least a few of these:</p>
<p>Priviledge by Douthat
The Bell Curve Wars by Fraiser
Shape of the River by Bowen & Bok
The Big Test by LeMann
Savage Inequalities by Kozol
The Otherside of the River by Kotlowitz
Building Suburbia by Hayden
Transforming College by Keller
The Bell Curve Debate by Jacoby
On Meritocracy by LeMann
Bias by Goldberg
Te Working Poor by Shipler
Why are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria? by Tatum
University, Inc. by Washburn
There Are No Children Here by Kotlowitz
The Golden Mean by Hans</p>
<p>As for this from Crazyla:</p>
<p>'It benefits the college if they bring in highly qualified students ? it sustains or increases its ranking ? What a strange concept ! I can't imagine a corporation daring to hire only the most qualified candidate for the job....'</p>
<p>The highly qualified (affluent) student does benefit the college...because the school can raise its USNews rankings. BTW, corporations do not always hire the most qualified candidates. Look at the glass ceiling for women and minorities. Talk about out of touch. Corporations are sensitive to their image as well. In this day an age, if you do not hire any women or minorities but only white males (who have had many gereations of priviledge) based on performance, it would be aPR nightmare. I hope you're NOT suggesting that corporations should not have hired women or minorities for jobs because they are statistically 'weaker' than the white male. If that were the case, we'd be back in the 70's and 80's. Wow.</p>
<p>I'm frankly getting sick of the elitism on this thread. Now, sexism and racism??? No wonder our generation is overly concerned with branding and rank...a new class sytem, perhaps??!! Amazing.</p>
<p>IB</p>
<p>this has been a great discussion and seems to be going south a little ... it seems as long as decriptors such as affluent, middle-class, rich, etc, for which there are not common definitions, are used there will be disagreement. </p>
<p>For example, I believe IB would say that merit-aid is offered to and accepted by children of families making 80-150k at a rate much higher than to children of families making 45k or less. However these families should be described do you believe this is true or not?</p>
<p>The second quesiton is do you believe that merit-aid and financial-sid compete for a significant part of the aid bucket proivided by the school itself?</p>
<p>I believe most people who would rather see more financial aid and less merit aid believe the answer to both questions is yes ... that given a limited budget that financial aid gives more students a crack at attending that school than merit aid does. Your mileage may vary.</p>
<p>3togo:</p>
<p>Much better put than me. I wish I had your ability to cut-to-the-chase and the simple elegance of efficent words (hopefully, I'll develop that in college). Probably be better for this discussion. I'm pretty excited to learn how structure my arguements better.</p>
<p>I am sometimes not sure what to include or not. :)</p>
<p>Thank you for being gracious and reasonable.</p>
<p>IB
PS--I think I'm beginning to get a little frustrated...didn't mean to rant.</p>
<p>A quote:</p>
<p>"...The richest kids tend to be most spoiled and often are bit of "slackers" (not all, but a good many). The best students tend to be middle/upper middle."</p>
<p>I'm glad there was some movement with how you define income (i.e. upper middle class) although it is still paired with 'middle class'. I'm not sure that is the case about them being the best students because it can be s subjective call.</p>
<p>As for the post about the prep books...yes, people can check it out from the library. The point is that a public library tends to be free for all community members. I would not say that the choice to use a library depends on socio-economic class.</p>
<p>As to the original OP, 3togo said it best.
IB</p>
<p>IB,
I respect your opinion and your passion for it. I still disagree...but that doesn't mean you haven't done yourself proud with your arguments. Many of us would like to help the poor. Hopefully some day you will be able to truly make a difference for them. I wish you continued success.</p>
<p>Thank you shedevil.</p>
<p>I guess the reason why this topic is so close to me is because at my private HS, where most families are around the higher end of the 'middle class' definitional used here on CC complain that low-income kids are not "smarter" than themselves while some of them slide into a car that they did not pay for, but is a neccesity. Of course they use prep classes for the SAT, they go to college summer programs, and they have choices that someone that falls below the 80-150k cannot even contemplate. Often, my friends and peers feel sorry for themselves, while feeling entitled to merit money. It's that sense of priviledge that gets me. Then, when aid awards come out they bemoan the fact that they can't afford college and have to settle for UW, while wearing 7 jeans, talking on a cellphone, contemplating what tickets to buy for a concert on the weekend, or what they want from Nordy's.</p>
<p>It took me a while to get to where I'm at now with respect to college issues. My friends at the public schools...worry about getting into UW or WSU or WWU. They worry about getting a job that will pay for what they want, how they are going to find the money to make up the gap in financial aid (since none of the public colleges guarentee to meet need). Their decisions are more dollar sensitive, than those of my friends attending private high schools.</p>
<p>I've tried to encourage some of my friends to apply to colleges that meet demonstrated need because I believe that they can do it. Did they ever think about going out-of-state? Nope, because a majority look at the sticker price and believe that their family would have to pay the full amount. For instance, one of my friends, who attends public school, did not even apply to the LAcs she loved (Mt. Holyoke, Bryn Mawr, Wellesley) because she believed her parents made too much money to qualify (income about 60,000-70,000). They will be paying the full cost of her decision (no matter what it takes to do this) to get out of WA and go to Colorado State. Her calculated EFC according to the FAFSA calculators would be around $10,000 (far less than what she is going to pay at CSU).</p>
<p>That is why I find it hard to accept that the term 'middle' income is 80-150k. If public school kids who do not get need-aid (or even if they do) can swing the EFC or pay the total cost, it's harder to justify merit-aid for those making 80-150k. Incomes closer to 80k I can somewhat see...but 150k, I have a problem with. That would be me, getting my college subsidized via merit-aid rather than using the money I put away, is a little unsettling because there are others who are more deserving that fall under the 'middle class' definitional. </p>
<p>Just my experience, and my opinion.
IB</p>
<p>IB
If you ever make it big...like Bill Gates. And you're immunizing the kids in Africa, please let the world know that at one time you used a screen name of IB? I'd love to be able to say I wrote you once upon a time. </p>
<p>I appreciate where you are coming from. You might be suprised to find out the household income of the kids that are attending private school, wearing 7 jeans, attending summer camps, etc. far exceeds middle class. I'm not sure what income that would be. I know it isn't $100k. I'd be surprised if even $150k household kids live like that. Unless there is family money or something. It sounds like affluent kids complaining about not getting merit aid. I agree that doesn't add up.</p>
<p>actually many private schools have very good aid
My oldest attended private- because the public district flat out told us that they could not serve her. ( she is gifted with Lds)
Our before tax income- not including overtime is about $50,000 with overtime we can bump it to $60,000 + and of course the year before my daughter applied to college- there had been a lot of overtime- but after two weeks of college ( and 9-11) that changed drastically- there wasn't any overtime- and there were lots of layoffs.
We luckily have never had huge debt- and have to put money in an account to tide us over through layoffs and strikes- so we were able to squeak by- but while she does get aid at her private college & she got aid at her private school- she was far from being the only one to do so.
I think it depends on the area- what the private school famiies look like.- Our city has about 1/3 of school age kids attending private school- and it isn't only the wealthy- the private schools appreciate economic and racial diversity, just as the private colleges do-</p>
<p>I hear what you are saying though
If they averaged the income at a private shcool- you would probably get perhaps $150,000 we have friends who are corporate attorneys and I think they bill $500+ an hour?
But there is a big range- and most of the people have pretty similar lifestyle- even our kids go to summer camp & we take a ski vacation every year :)</p>
<p>Shedevil:</p>
<p>I don't understand that as well. About almost half of my friends and peers families make about 100-160k, the other half more than that. But, many of them have other assets as well. The friends I have that make less than the 80k...they just cut out the unneccessary stuff. Board games instead of concerts, eating in, instead of out, keeping their cars for a while (10-15 years), go on vacation once a year or less, etc...And, the majority of their familes are stoic about it all. </p>
<p>Heh-heh, about Bill Gates...I don't think anyone will be that big...though I guess it's possible. :)</p>
<p>And, it really is more due to my circumstances that I have particular views. I just had to process them (it took a bit of time). Every one can do great things at any age. I might be the one that is going to say wow...I exchanged views with you. :)</p>
<p>I don't know how some of my friends and peers that go to public schools can manage, but they do.
IB</p>
<p>I've read every post on this thread at some time, but don't have time to read them all again. Has anything been written about how many middle and even upper-income families are able to hide their assets through a business and make it appear that they are low income? I recently learned of a student who is definitely middle class whose father was able to divert things through his business and pay himself little actual "salary" who qualifies for all-expenses-paid aid (including books and travel, with no loans) through a public university. That aid is being financed, in part, through students' tuition, much of which is paid by those who are less affluent and have to take out loans.</p>
<p>I do think that merit aid is a much more fair way to go, but I realize that even then the decisions are subjective.</p>
<p>Ive heard of people who own their own business- who can "hire" their kids-
but it sounds like you are talking more about people like Bill gates- who obviously are quite wealthy- but then choose to pay themselves a smaller salary-
I think that might be fairly easy to do- if you are attending a public school that doesn't use PROFILE or their own aid forms
I never really thought about it- but public schools are often recommended to people to get around noncustodial parents with large incomes etc.
I think some schools are doublechecking things though
<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/articles/brief/03need_brief.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/articles/brief/03need_brief.php</a></p>
<p>Everything is twisted in IsleBoy's logic. </p>
<p>Merit awards are given for performance and achievements. These awards do NOT take into consideration the wealth of parents at all. It is FAIR to students.<br>
Note that every student (poor, middle-class or wealthy) can get a merit award if they deserved it. Criteria for merit awards vary from college to college, and SAT scores are absolutely definetly NOT the main factor in giving out these awards. Just look at college-spesific message board, and you will see that many kids with great stats were left out in favor of other kids with not so stellar stats. </p>
<p>In addition, "poor" kids have many more opportunires to get external scholarships, as about 90% of them consider the "need-based" factor.</p>
<p>Internal merit-aid is not fairer way to go for many reasons, not least among them, the fact that internal merit-aid takes away from need-based aid in a financial aid budget that is LIMITED. External awards (sponsored by outside sources) that can be carried to the institution the kid eventally attends is a better way. And, not all merit-aid is the same.</p>
<p>That's why outside scholarships that have particular requirements are prefered to internal college merit-aid. Again, because those that benefit from internal merit-aid are usually affluent, that leaves out those that make less than 80k a year. And, it can be argued that SAT scores are biased, so 'merit' is a slippery definition. Who defines what merit is exactly?</p>
<p>Tan: My logic is not twisted at all. Anyone can start an external scholarship competition. And the 90% figure is false...where did that data come from? Also read my earlier post...did you look at any of the non-fiction books about performance, achievements, and test scores. Again, there is a difference between external and internal merit-aid and scholarship aid.</p>
<p>Good example: Washington University. 8 years ago they accepted 66% of their applicants and guarenteed to meet need....they changed those policies and began shifting their budget towards merit-aid. Big jump in USNews...more interest. How does my logic not mirror what happened?</p>
<p>IB.</p>
<p>In addition, "poor" kids have many more opportunires to get external scholarships, as about 90% of them consider the "need-based" factor.
since some of the "facts" and "stats" that are thrown around on these boards aren't citing where they got their info in anyway- I will throw another out there
50% of all stats are false ;)</p>
<p>Emeraldkity:</p>
<p>Very true...still can't get over the 80-150k as 'middle class'. I'm truely astounded to find out that all the perks I got while I was growing up were amazing considering my 'middle class' background. Or that I deserve, according to this thread, internal merit-aid that would neccessarily take away from need-based aid for those who are in the lower income range (0-79.9k). I really am a bit shell-shocked about this.</p>
<p>;)</p>
<p>IB</p>
<p>Based on the external scholarships we have looked at through our school and community I agree with TanCat. They all start out "given to a student who has shown outstanding academics in the area of blah, blah, blah, etc. etc. etc.... and demonstrates financial need". The 90% may not be a published number, but in reality that's what I've seen.</p>
<p>Funny, but I've found many that do not have the demostrated need specification. There are some gear for specifically needy kids or ones which prefers those that have need. The latter, however, does not preclude an award given to someone who does not demonstrate need.</p>
<p>That's been my experience at my HS. Some of my affluent peers have recieved outside non-need scholarships. They had to hunt harder, but they got them...as well as some that prefered needy applicants that did not apply.</p>
<p>IB.</p>
<p>PS--Again Tan, can I have the source?</p>
<p>but "demonstrating" financial need- isn't that what these posts are saying?
That a family who makes $80,000 to $130,000 can have financial need?
I have heard of schools and organizations who just want info on what families actually are able to pay for college and if my D was trying to get funds so she could attend a school that we couldn't afford- that certainly sounds like financial need to me.</p>
<p>I'll add my opinion that the 90% figure is not far off from what I've observed. </p>
<p>I just learned of another situation similar to the one I mentioned in my previous post that involves another student who I know personally, so this appears to be fairly widespread. I also feel pretty confident that these two families did not break any laws, but have been able to game the system.</p>