Why do some people object to merit-based aid?

Parents Forum
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<p>IB ... hang in there ... you're not along in your overall position on merit-aid and need-based-aid ... you're about 100 times more articulate than I am!</p>

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<p>Im not sure that shedevil is saying that it is gaming.</p>

<p>There is no rule that says you have to work if able before you collect need based college aid. So how is it gaming if people choose to sit at home and receive need based aid? It is very different than welfare.</p>

<p>However if your income is say $50,000- your EFC will look very different if it is divided between two people like $10,000 & $40,000 than if it was $48,000 and $2,000, because there is an income protection allowance for each income- but if one income dominates, you only get to utilize one income protection allowance.</p>

<p>However since average income is $45,000, I think many families that would qualify for need based aid- * are* both working.
Minimum wage in this country is pathetic. many jobs that working mothers hold for example, aren't full time so they don't have to pay benefits or overtime- even though the women working may want and need to work full time. I would guess that many of the families who qualify for need based aid, and who aren't on public assistance, are working as much as they can, or have health problems that preclude them from steady work &/or have small children at home</p>

<p>If you have two people earning $60,000 ea, and one chooses to forgo their salary in hopes of getting aid- then I seriously don't have a problem with that, although I question their sanity.</p>

<p>I know people, myself included, who had to step away from a job or career because of health or family problems, and now am unable to find suitable work. Just taking a couple years away from your field, makes it a struggle to find anything let alone something comparable to your last job.</p>

<p>If you look for a job that is seriously below your skill set, you won't be hired because they reason that you will find something else better- even though you really want the job.</p>

<p>If you look for a job similar to the one you left, you find that they don't want to hire you because you are "old" or just because things have changed so much and they can get someone younger- cheaper & they won't have to pay a pension in a couple years.</p>

<p>So seriously, if you have a job that you like, even if you just like the benefits, I wouldn't quit, especially just because you think your kids will get more in financial aid.</p>

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<p>3togo:</p>

<p>I would have to disagree. I'ver read some of your posts...you are definitely articulate, and quicker to the point. ;)</p>

<p>IB.</p>

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<p>I'm not planning on quitting my job. I also am not planning on spending my entire paycheck to send my children to Ivy League schools. This thread was about why people object to merit aid. The main reason seems to be that it takes away from need based aid. I'm just pointing out that there are problems with need based aid also.</p>

<p>The most compelling argument I have heard against merit aid, is that it would be next to impossible to determine who to give it to. I have to agree that among the candidates at Ivy League schools, this is true and could lead to undesirable consequences...more gaming.</p>

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<p>The most compelling argument I have heard against merit aid, is that it would be next to impossible to determine who to give it to. I have to agree that among the candidates at Ivy League schools, this is true and could lead to undesirable consequences...more gaming.</p>

<p>Yes I have heard that too- since the colleges argue that they spend more educating each student than they are charged in tuition- they are already awarding merit aid- just by accepting them.</p>

<p>And since the schools that offer need only aid- are already some of the most competitive academically in the country- they also could argue that any of their students have the acheivements to be awarded merit aid.</p>

<p>They already have students tryng to figure out how to position themselves to best catch the eye of the admission officers- especially at very competitive schools- even without merit aid, so just imagine what it would be like if those schools went by merit as well!
oy vey!</p>

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<p>crazyla:</p>

<p>The belief that "it happened with welfare" is based on the wrong-headed thinking that people do not have a right to their own money.</p>

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<p>jlauer... Thanks for the clarification. I thought that might be what IB meant, didn't think he could really be serious .........................</p>

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<p>crazyla: On the Island of IB, the US is believed to be full of greedy merit grabbing affluents, a small middle class, and a bunch of others, who thru absolutely no fault of their own woke up one morning and found themselves to be low income and have had some of their "multi-decade entitlements" reduced by those greedy affluents who have the nerve to think that the money that they earn is their own.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
crazyla: On the Island of IB, the US is believed to be full of greedy merit grabbing affluents,

[/quote]
let's try a different view ... in a world with unlimited funds having both need based aid and merit based aid would be great ... but schools do not have unlimited funds. </p>

<p>Made up example. LAC with 4000 students on average fulfills 93% of defined need with financial aid and also has a merit aid program and costs $45,000 per year. The merit awards are a terrific reward from some very high achieving students. Most of these students who receive merit awards receive a bigger award then their financial aid package would have been.</p>

<p>A new president arrives, 3togo or IB take your pick, while he loves the high caliber students the merit program brings to the school he is troubled by the students who are accepted but can't afford to attend the school and believes that is a bigger issue. He implements a program that eliminates merit scholarships . All this money is redirected to the financial aid budget ... given these funds they first raise the % of need fulfilled to 100% allowing more qualified kids to attend the school ... they lose a few stellar students but their yield improves overall as the school becomes more affortable ... and the program helps broaden the economic diversity of the students who attend. </p>

<p>Phase I works so well that the Pres decides to also eliminate athletic scholarships, band scholarships, any non-financial aid aid ... this allows the school to go beyond 100% of the FAFSA defined need to 105% of need ... essentially this school is provding more financial aid than virtually any other school ... with the aid being more per student and extending further in the middle class than any other schools ... raising the yield again and making the population of the school come even closer to reflecting the economic diversity of the US.</p>

<p>The Pres is put on the cover of Communist weekly and the plan is quickly adopted by other schools trying to match the improvement in yield.</p>

<p>Back to your regular programming ... while this is obviously a unrelaistic dream it does come close to defining the aid principles of the IVY league schools and some other top schools. (with the big caveat they are not willing to spend their endowments to go past 100% of need ... which to me would be a HUGE win with families). </p>

<p>This is also not saying anything negative about merit programs or the kids who receive merit awards ... it's just stating an opinion that greater good could be done with those same (limited) funds.</p>

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<p>Raising the % of need fulfilled from 93% (your original scenario) to 100% allows more qualified kids to attend school? No, it allows someone with a low EFC to attend the top schools, and the more qualified student with the high EFC, based on ridiculous government forumulas, can go find a state school that might or might not challenge them academically. But, oh, I forgot, their academic stats were "bought" via private school, tutors and SAT prep tests.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
No, it allows someone with a low EFC to attend the top schools, and the more qualified student with the high EFC,

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since I'm Pres and my school has need blind admissions I'm not sure how the kid with the higher EFC is more qualified ... all the admitted kids are qualified. </p>

<p>(Phase II tried to (going to 105%) is dealing with the EFCs being a reach for most families).</p>

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<p>"This is also not saying anything negative about merit programs or the kids who receive merit awards ... it's just stating an opinion that greater good could be done with those same (limited) funds."</p>

<p>I agree.</p>

<p>jlauer95: Really??? </p>

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<p>Right...wrong-headed thinking that affluent kids (including myself) are entitled to a subsidy for college because our parents have statistically been affluent for a bit of time or are well educated??? How is it that ALL taxpayers SHOULD subsidize your education? Isn't that the same arguement?</p>

<p>Funny, but your money is your money, until merit-aid is given out to affluent kids, in disproportionate numbers, and partially DEPENDS on the WHOLE tax base, whether at the state or federal level. I see, so it's okay for you to keep your money as long as you get a break that all taxpaying Americans subsidize.</p>

<p>That clears it up. Shedevil said it best. That is why there are LIMITS to social welfare programs (which I applaud, BTW). But, I also notice that no one is advocating for more guidelines to merit-aid. Why? Becuase self-interest is a foot. I idea is PROPORTION.</p>

<p>Yet again, I'm okay with external aid, and particular scholarship guidelines, that can be carried to the instituion a student decides to attend (so you protect the freedom of private organizations). I am less happy about the movement in the last 10 years (thank you, Washington University) to commit more to merit-aid at the expense of need-based aid for the purpose of rank or presitige. </p>

<p>Some may argue that a private school (as a business) can do what it wants within certain limits. I agree as well. However, I do not agree with the assertion that merit-aid somehow makes college more accessable (as an educational endevor) for those who cannot afford it.</p>

<p>So is the main purpose of merit-aid a business paradigm? Or is it an educational one that has some responsibility to promote academic success within the larger population? For me, it's the latter. One cannot exist beyond the society they live in. To live with blinders on. To ignore the plight of others. To feel sorry instead of empathy for the suffering of another person.</p>

<p>Maybe, I'm wrongheaded. But, then, so was John Stewart Mills, Jesus, Gandi, Derek Bok (Current Interem President of Harvard), David Bowen (Former President of Princeton), Nicholas LeMann (Head of the Journalism School at Columbia), etc...AND I'm not saying that I belong among them (before you flame me).</p>

<p>It is interesting that name-calling is starting again, however. The OP already seemed to have an agenda. But, get's upset when people disagree. I'm amazed yet again by that. We're all adults, I think. Please try and stay away from telling me to come to the mainland, or that I am wrong-headed. Or assume, like Crazyla, that I'm liberal or that you know my views. You only know how I think in the context of this thread. </p>

<p>Attacking my character or where I'm from because my views are simply different than yours can make it seem like a little bit of intimidation. Don't get me wrong, I don't usually get cowed by it. It's just that it seldom works. And, again, I notice that there STILL is no constructive dialogue or response to the various non-fiction works (whether liberal, conservative, or middle of the road) that touch on inequity in college education, testing, admissions, or its social and/or psychological impact. Why is that? </p>

<p>Just an opinion, in a sea of opinions.
IB</p>

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<p>but many act as if it's a "zero sum" game -- thinking that one "takes from the other, when actually colleges that benefit from getting the students that they get from merit helps "grow" their foundations so that more money is available for FA.</p>

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<p>"Just an opinion, in a sea of opinions" around the isle of IB</p>

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<p>Did I say that?</p>

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<p><<< Attacking my character or where I'm from >>>></p>

<p>Nobody has attacked your "character" or where you're "from". The "play on words" have been with your SN. No one has attacked the Northwest.</p>

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<p>jlauer95:</p>

<p>Actually, if you read all my posts, you'd see that there are win-win situations (see external versus internal merit-aid). I never claimed that it was a zero sum game. And, I understand why one who disagrees would nudge my views into a black-or-white scenario or "zero sum" game. It's an elegant debate technique, but does not serve to illuminate or answer the original question. </p>

<p>You asked about feeling and thoughs on merit-aid, I did not. I also gave you my opinion as to why I personally have a bit of a problem with merit-aid. I ignored the obvious either-or-chocie in the OP. I clarified what merit-aid, again in my view, was acceptable and what was less so. I talked about theory as well as reality using antidotes, non-fiction works, etc...all in good faith that you wanted to have diverse opinions. </p>

<p>Perhaps, I misread your posts. </p>

<p>Again...by casting me as an outsider on an 'island', a euphamism for being out of touch (kinda clever), you are doing yourself and me a disservice. </p>

<p>IB</p>

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<p>3togo,</p>

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<p>I'm saying that for certain income levels (yes that 'middle income' that is so vague) the formulas really s**** in determining EFC. A family with 2 working parents that just hit that income line are being told they can contribute full EFC which in most cases is unrealistic. So their kids, even though their qualifications are excellent (and contrary to what IB continually says) are not " bought" with private schools, tutors and SAT prep tests... these kids don't have a chance at a top school as there is no merit, just FA, and that's where academically lower students but with full need have the advantage. I'm not discounting that the "affluent" student with good stats (that may be bought) also has the advantage.</p>

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<p>jlauer:</p>

<p>Calling me 'wronheaded', and that should have been 'coming from.'</p>