<p>Stern is 3.4, Stanford is around the same. Undergrad is a lot higher, why are the standards lower?</p>
<p>HighSchool GPA vs College (undergraduate level) GPA vs Graduate level GPA are all different. </p>
<p>A 3.4 GPA in highschool might not be that good but a 3.4 GPA in college (especially from top schools) are considered excellent GPA because it is extremely hard to get 4.0. </p>
<p>The standard is not lower. In fact, the standard is much higher in college than in highschool because of crazy competition. </p>
<p>Simple example: In highschool, the distribution of not so smart to super smart kids seem to follow a normal curve while in top college like Harvard, only the top super smart kids are there but in a course, not all of them will get A. Only the TOP of the TOP will get A, hence, some will end up with B and C but that doesn't mean they are worse than a high school student who has straight A. Many of those who get average around 3.0 GPA at Harvard generally have excellent grade in highschool before getting admitted to Harvard.</p>
<p>Another example: Any grade that is C- or below in graduate level is considered failure. The course difficulty increases exponentially at this level comparing to undergraduate level and usually the general population of graduate student tend to have GPA flutuate around 3.4. One more interesting observation I see is that their graduate GPA tend to be higher than their undergraduate GPA.</p>
<p>Bottom line is: It is not wise to compare highschool GPA against college GPA vs graduate school GPA. Every level has its own standard and the standard tends not to be lower but indeed much higher! </p>
<p>As a current graduate student, I speak from my observation and experience.</p>
<p>Um, MBA programs attract students who want management skills. You do not need a 3.7+ GPA to get into the top business schools. It's your GMAT scores and quality of work experience that matters more.</p>
<p>I'm surprised, a 3.4 at the top colleges that are well represented in top MBA programs is not considered excellent.</p>
<p>Work experiece is hugely important in top MBA admission and GMAT is very important. While GPA is less important than those 2, I'm still surprised a 3.4 is average at Stanford.</p>
<p>OK, looked it up, it was 3.61 at Stanford GSB for this year's class. Lower than I would have thought, but not 3.4.</p>
<p>"A" students from top colleges don't get their MBAs. Most of the "A" students go to medical and law schools or PHD programs; and some find that their careers are progressing so well that it obviates getting an MBA.</p>
<p>^Simply not true. Top schools have become largely pre-professional with the exception of a few top LACs, with investment banking the number 1 future job choice at ivies, MIT, Cal Tech, Stanford, Duke and others, before this year anyway!</p>
<p>^ Not anymore. No thanks to working 110 hours a week for no bonus at all.</p>
<p>What cbreeze is referring to is that most top college grads pursue graduate degrees that don't have such strigent work experience requirements. You don't need work experience to get a JD or MD. Those two degrees alone emphasize high GPA and test scores for admissions. You certainly don't need years of work experience to get an MPP, MSW or research-track PhD. The MBA attracts college grads with years of work experience under their belt who want a career change. GPA becomes less important as one works longer in the business world. This also explains why women (who tend to have higher overall grades) tend to enter JD/MD programs in higher numbers than MBA programs.</p>
<p>MBA is not always about career change. Before recent years ibankers, management consultants and others were expected to go back for an MBA. Many if not most of those returned to the firm they left after getting the degree.</p>
<p>As for women, there's many reasons they pursue MBA's in lower numbers. The key one is said to be the glass ceiling, women look around and see it's harder to reach the heights inn business that their male peers do. It also has a lot to do with biology. The majority of top MBA program female grads leave the workforce to care for children, so the degree becomes less valuable over the long term.</p>
<p>Anyone take intro to marketing?</p>
<p>hmom5, I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the MBA among women. There are women who now see the benefits of an MBA in non-traditional areas such as education, social enterprise, and nonprofit work. For the women who drop out of the workforce to take care of children, they could be using their MBA education to start up and manage their own small businesses. There are plenty of women who go this path and have achieved the work/family balance they highly desired. As for women who go the JD/MD path, they know they can finish their degree earlier straight out of college.</p>
<p>
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Top schools have become largely pre-professional with the exception of a few top LACs, with investment banking the number 1 future job choice at ivies, MIT, Cal Tech, Stanford, Duke and others, before this year anyway!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's a recent phenomenon, perhaps starting in the 80s. When I graduated from college, no one heard of investment banking. All the "smart" kids who had top grades were pre-professional, but they wanted to be doctors and lawyers. The A average students from arts/sciences tended to go to law and medicine and in large part still do.</p>
<p>I am a bit lazy to look it up but I am sure you will find that that the applicant pool for top law and med schools are full of "A" average students, whereas the applicant pool for top b-schools are full of mostly "B" average students except perhaps Stanford, Harvard and Wharton.</p>
<p>Most of those A average students who went to IB in the last 10 years have done very well in their careers without needing an MBA. However, the scenario may change in the next year or two as those who have been laid off may want to spend the next 2 years in B school instead of being unemployed.</p>
<p>I think the most flexible degree for women is the MD because doctors can adjust their work time based on their needs without losing seniority.</p>
<p>A great GPA does not equate to success in the real world. Many people with lower GPAs are successful in the real world despite a lower GPA. GPA is a good measure of work ethic, which is important to many MBA employers. However, it isn't a good measure of business savvy or many of the soft skills that are necessary to successfully climb the corporate ladder and/or be successful entrepreneurs.</p>
<p>BTW, the business school GPAs are probably inflated a bit now simply due to the record number of applicants.</p>
<p>Tenisghs, interestingly, surveys of women who have graduated from top MBA programs in the last 2 decades show that they mostly do not work at all during the child raising years. This is because they have mostly married their peers at the top B schools--very high wage earners. It appears to be changing now with more women staying in the work force and we can only guess what the current economic situation will change.</p>
<p>Cbreeze, when you and I graduated from college it took great grades to get into the top B Schools, more so than today because we were expected to work only 2 years so work experience wasn't as important as today.</p>
<p>There is a perception that B students went to B school among many. This is what DH saw at the large state school he attended 25 years ago and DS1 saw at his large state school 2 years ago. Yet even in the late 70's and very much in the 80's, ibanking jobs and top B schools were in great demand among top students at top college. MIT has even been sending a third of every class to Wall Street!</p>
<p>As for most flexible job for women, I'd vote for an MBA over an MD. When I worked part time when I had young children, I was able to make quite a bit of money as opposed to my MD friends who made very little working part time and could only get mundane jobs on that basis (family practice). There are many discreet jobs in business that lend themselves to part time work and just so much more money in the field than in medicine today which allows women to nicely contribute to family finances.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As for most flexible job for women, I'd vote for an MBA over an MD. When I worked part time when I had young children, I was able to make quite a bit of money as opposed to my MD friends who made very little working part time and could only get mundane jobs on that basis (family practice). There are many discreet jobs in business that lend themselves to part time work and just so much more money in the field than in medicine today which allows women to nicely contribute to family finances.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think I agree with this from what I see. I have 2 kids in "business" track and DH in MD track. I've seen many women MD tailor their practices to suit their needs and many are very happy with their choices. I don't know anyone who would label their work as mundane.They were able to pick up where they left off, even after a considerable absence. </p>
<p>At the same time, many women who were in business track and took time off to raise families had a tough time finding part/full time work that was comparable in terms of responsibility and compensation prior to their absences. Hmom5, if you have any suggestions, please let me know as my D will fall in this predicament in the next few years.</p>
<p>CBreeze, I myself worked part time in ibanking for 8 years when my kids were small. I was able to pick and choose projects because there was great demand at the time. I was able to make well into the 6 figures and nice bonuses working 15-20 hours per week. My best friend is a surgeon by training. To work reasonable part time hours her choices were very limited. She worked 2 days per week in a family practice and made less than $50K per year. It was not the practice she dreamed of but it worked for her at the time.</p>
<p>When I wanted to go back full time I had many offers to choose from and I really hadn't missed a beat compensation wise. There are many 'returned' women in the bank I work for.</p>
<p>My DH is a management consultant who recently brought in a returning to work MBA at a very senior level. She had a small consulting practice of her own while raising kids and was smart enough to focus on a niche that makes her very attractive to firms now.</p>
<p>In business it's about keeping yourself marketable.</p>
<p>My impression in medicine is that real wages are going down unless you have a great rep and can do a retainer practice, you shot botox, etc., but I really don't know. It's certainly far more recession proof although a doctor friend told me just this week that office visits are down due to the economy!!</p>
<p>Just a comment concerning something Kevin101 said in post #2 above:</p>
<p>He wrote:
Another example: Any grade that is C- or below in graduate level is considered failure. The course difficulty increases exponentially at this level comparing to undergraduate level and usually the general population of graduate student tend to have GPA flutuate around 3.4. One more interesting observation I see is that their graduate GPA tend to be higher than their undergraduate GPA.</p>
<p>My comment:
In most top MBA programs, all GPAs are computed based upon +/- grading (A=4.0, A-=3.7, B+=3.3, B=3.0, etc.), and you need a 3.0 average just to graduate. Also, as Kevin101 correctly points out, a C- doesn't count as a 1.7 at some of the top schools, but rather as a zero (0)--the same as a "F" grade. And usually, even if you are in with a class of 3.5 GPA people on average, you need to do as well as the class average to get a B+ (3.3 GPA) in the class (this was the case at UCLA where I went, I can't say how other schools grade). Thus, the competition is great to not ever fall below the class average (so one can be assured of graduating from the MBA program), and to never, never, never get a grade of C- or below--which would essentially keep you from being able to graduate unless all your other grades were solely "A"s.</p>
<p>so I'll try for a 3.8 to try to get into Stern Grad or HBS</p>
<p>AMGLeague,</p>
<p>You need to consider that top MBA programs pull students from across a variety of majors, including a large fraction of students from technical majors where GPA's tend to be lower. Compare this to top law schools were the average entering student has specifically chosen a major with liberal grading policies such as Communications, or Political Science for the express purpose of achieving a high GPA and getting into a good law school. </p>
<p>I posted this in another thread, but am copying it again here because it seems relevant:</p>
<p>"The low median GPA is representative not of a decline in admissions standards, but is instead a reflection of the increasing numbers of engineers and scientists entering MBA programs. If you examine addmissions statistics from the last 10 years or so, you'll see that as the average GPA for admitted students has fallen approximately 0.2-0.3 points, average GMAT scores have increased by 30-40 points. Over the same period, the fraction of students at top MBA programs with undergraduate degrees in the technical fields has risen from about under 15% to about 25%.</p>
<p>I think few people realize just how much lower average GPA's are in engineering and physical science programs when compared to liberal arts and similar majors. Having worked in my schools addmissions office I've had a chance to play with some of the data. Some interesting tidbits:</p>
<p>The average UG GPA at Berkeley Engineering was 2.7. The average GPA for Berkeley UG as a whole was 3.3.</p>
<p>The average UG GPA at Georgia Tech was 2.8.</p>
<p>The average UG GPA at Carnegie Mellon CIT was 2.9.</p>
<p>The average UG GPA at Cornell Engineering was 2.9. The average UG GPA for Cornell UG as a whole is 3.33.</p>
<p>The average GPA at MIT was 3.1 out of 5.0.</p>
<p>If you compare the populations of students with technical degrees to those with non-technical degrees with the same GMAT scores, you find that the GPA gap for technical majors vs. non-technical majors is around 0.5-0.6 points. Its actually been a big dillema for admissions to figure out how to admit more student with technical degrees (who are in demand with the majority of employers), while at the same time maintaining the schools standing in the rankings."</p>
<p>Also, many MBA students at top schools did not plan in advance to attend business school, or any graduate school for that matter, and made the decision to return to school only after several successful years in the work force. Those who were successful enough in the working world to attend top business schools tend to be more social and well rounded and less academic. They are generally the types of people who put a lot of time into things like internships, sports, student government, fraternities/sororities, or volunteer work rather than strictly grades during undergrad. Jack of all trades, master of none type of personality. Contrast this to the average med school student who knows at the begining of his four years of undergrad that he wants to be a doctor and also knows that nothing less than straight A's will get him to med school.</p>
<p>The average GPA at Berkeley is around 3.1 or 3.2 if I'm not mistaken.
GPAs are out of 4.0, not 5.0.
There's a lot more smart people in college.
Therefore, [your GPA is usually lower.</p>