<p>Is Princeton relevant to U.S. college students? About 0% attend Princeton. Does the same principle hold for relevant schools?</p>
<p>The principle holds even more strongly for relevant schools. For Princeton, the difference between its ED yield (100%) and its RD yield (55%) wasnât even 2-1. Very, very few selective colleges have RD yields over 50%; basically, itâs most of the Ivies, Stanford, MIT. Very fine colleges only slightly less shiny have RD yields in the 25-35% range. Without ED, they would have to accept a whole lot more students to fill a class.</p>
<p>Although this is not a sequitur to the above, one additional look at a different school provides an insight on the issue of ED</p>
<p>Here are numbers culled from Oberlin - Class of 2015</p>
<p>See <a href=âhttp://oberlin.edu/instres/irhome/www/cds/2011/[/url]â>http://oberlin.edu/instres/irhome/www/cds/2011/</a></p>
<p>Applications 7395
Admitted 2192 (29.6 admission rate)
Enrolled 751</p>
<p>Waitlist admits 141
ED Admits 245
ED Applications 431</p>
<p>The above exemplifies the issues for a school such as Oberlin. While their total yield is slightly above 34 percent, it is a result of attracting 245 ED students PLUS relying on an additional 141 WL admits. The yield on RD is probably below 23 percent.</p>
<p>Even a school like Penn achieves its lofty 62.7% yield mainly though intensive use of ED. Here are the figures from Pennâs 2010-2011 Common Data Set:</p>
<p>3,841 admitted
2,410 enrolled freshmen
62.7% yield</p>
<p>1,319 ED admit (= 54.7% of enrolled freshman class)
55 waitlist admit (= 4.2% of enrolled freshman class</p>
<p>Assuming all the ED and WL admits enrolled, that would leave:</p>
<p>2,467 RD admit
1,036 RD enrolled
42.0% RD yield</p>
<p>In short, Pennâs RD yield is right about the same level as Michigan and UVA, neither of which uses ED. UVA did admit 301 applicants off its waitlist, or about 9.3% of its entering class. Michigan admitted only 79 off its waitlist, or 1.2% of its entering class. If you exclude the waitlist admits, UVAâs âRDâ yield drops to 42.5%âstill a smidge above Pennâsâand Michiganâs holds steady at 40.0%, very much in the ballpark with Pennâs.</p>
<p>goldenboy certainly seems to like to start controversial threads (like the one about Baylor). UVa and Michigan are quite desirable and have no problem attracting lots of great applicants (and many will not be admitted). I donât think anybody in charge at either Michigan or UVa is losing any sleep about finding lots of great kids to attend.</p>
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<p>Clinton, in addition to be a useless metric for most of us, the yield is also one that does NOT lend itself to meaningful comparisons, especially between schools that have a national recruiting base and schools that are mostly local or regional powerhouses.</p>
<p>As an example, Texas has a lot more in common with Michigan and UVA than with Penn.</p>
<p>See <a href=âhttp://www.utexas.edu/academic/ima/sites/default/files/CDS_UT_Austin2010-11_FINAL.pdf[/url]â>http://www.utexas.edu/academic/ima/sites/default/files/CDS_UT_Austin2010-11_FINAL.pdf</a> and for a comparable year to the one above, Texas has a 44 percent admission and a 52 percent yield - even with the competition of Texas A$M! </p>
<p>Contrary to what might be the cases at Penn, most of the students who contribute to the above 50 percent yield had few other options than attending UT. Simply stated, they attend UT at Austin because no other school where they could gain admittance based on their records comes CLOSE to the prestige and recognition of their state school. Without UT, it would be ASU, Arkansas, Alabama, Oklahoma, or one of the less prestigious UT schools. And that is why the yield is high without an early program and little to no WL activities.</p>
<p>And, again, despite the lack of basis to compare the yield of schools, we can easily see why Michigan, Texas, Virginia, and Berkeley and Wisconsin, have more in common with the University of Nebraska than they do with Penn or other highly selective schools.</p>
<p>xiggi, UVa has many OOS applicants. Not as many as Penn but that would be obvious since Penn is private(and I would guess Penn attracts alot of applicants frm the NE and Mid Atlantic). I disagree with your premise that UT kids do not have other options as Penn applicants have. Many do not but many do. UVa had over 28000 applicants this year, only a few hundred less than Yale. The increase came primarily from OOS applicants as the instate number remains somewhat consistent (most kids instate have an idea of whether or not theyâre competitive and donât bother to apply if theyâre not). Many kids in states like Virginia,Michigan, Texas and California have the stats to apply to places like Penn. They just donât bother. Believe it or not, there are many high stats kids that prefer a place like UVa or Michigan to a place like Penn. Virginia has MANY high stats kids.</p>
<p>Sevmom, using terms such as many is problematic. If Virginia is 30 percent OOS, that represents ⊠many students, but Virginia is still a local and regional power. The type of school that appealed to Ferguson of Crazy U fame. </p>
<p>Please note that my comments about choices were about MORE prestigious or selective choices. Perhaps it is important to remember that Virginia, Texas, Michigan are at the pinnacle of public education.</p>
<p>So, back to the prestige wars again. It never ends. UVa is about 1/3 OOS. Many of the instate kids are from the DC area, which draws from all over. UVa has many more OOS applicants than instate and had over 28000 apps this year. It is well known as a public school both locally and regionally as you say and because it is public will not have the numbers that a school like Penn will have. Penn is private and has no mandate to the citizens of Pennsylvania. Penn is prestigious but nowhere near the prestige level of HYP to the vast majority of the population. Penn, I would guess is very popular for Wharton and finance and the Ivy or bust crowd in general. I have no doubt that Penn has a higher profile than UVa in international and national circles and it had about 31000 applicants this year so it is doing just fine . All of these schools are highly desirable to different types of kids and families. Penn is definitely ranked higher than UVa and Michigan in US News and World Report . Itâs a great school. No doubt. No debate there. There are lots of great schools out there.</p>
<p>Havenât found the Penn figures, but did fine the 2011 Cornell matriculation figures. As I expected, there is more of a regional influence than xiggi may imagine in some of the Ivies and privates.
New York 29.6%
New England 10.7
Mid Atlantic 20.9
South 5.4
SW 4.2
Midwest 7.7
West 12.4
International 9
Never thought Iâd find Crazy U and Ferguson in this discussion. His kid is at UVa but thatâs about all I know with that.</p>
<p>I live in Michigan. Just about everyone who could possibly get into UM applies, whether or not they plan to go. My D is the only one of all her friends who did not apply, since she knew she wanted to go out of state for school. Although her friends all applied, they did not all attend UM. Half my Sâs public school applied, and many were accepted ⊠not all attended. Itâs sort of expected to apply to UM, but not everyone wants to or can afford to attend when it comes time to make the final decision. Itâs a huge school, itâs not cheap, it doesnât meet need for in state students unless they are among the lowest income, there are big classes with TAâs, etc. These are just a few of the reasons students decide to go elsewhere for school. As far as OOS goes, I have read many threads on CC in which OOS students are shocked at the fact that they cannot afford UM. I would think that the fact that Michigan does not subsidize OOS students at it flagship contributes to more than a few who are accepted but do not attend.</p>
<p>Some Virginia kids go out of state because of merit at lower ranked schools or because (lately) the money can be better at some of the higher ranked ones. UVa really doesnât have merit aid. So yes, as mentioned, OOS is need based only and the types of kids that could be accepted to UVa OOS would probably have other good choices (maybe with more money) elsewhere. Virginia seems to be a little different than Michigan from what has been described . Lots of top kids in Virginia are interested in UVa and many go, from both public and private high schools. Who knows, maybe because itâs smaller, has the Jefferson thing. Like anywhere,though, some kids just want to get out of town (or state)!</p>
<p>" Just about everyone who could possibly get into UM applies, whether or not they plan to go."</p>
<p>I donât know where you live, but this isnât even close to being true. TONS of TOP students in the state donât apply there, much less ones that are at the lower fringes of âqualified for acceptance.â Thatâs why U of Michigan has always had an acceptance rate way higher than comparable colleges, both public and private. There are plenty of in-state valedictorians and salutatorians at all of the public colleges in Michigan, many of whom had no interest in Ann Arbor.</p>
<p>Boy, Michigan must be tough. Itâs a big state. Where are all these top students going? Why are you saying there is animosity toward a highly ranked flagship like Michigan? In Virginia, top students certainly think about merit, more prestige, just getting out of state , legacy elsewhere or some have enough money they can just go anywhere they want.But lots still strongly consider UVa, William and Mary and Virginia Tech and many go. Some kids that arenât into the UVa vibe do tend to prefer a more laidback Virginia Tech vibe. But are you saying top students in Michigan just tend to dismiss Michigan out of hand ?</p>
<p>sevmom:</p>
<p>Cornell is sort of an asterisk, bcos it has a land-grant historical side to it in which New York residents receive a really good deal: Ivy League education at instate prices, or at least discounted.</p>
<p>Re UVa â donât forget that UVa is one of a few publics that meets full financial need for OOSâers. Heck, many/most(?) publics donât even meet full need for instaters.</p>
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<p>True, most, But most private college and universities donât meet 100% of need, either. A few prominent examples:</p>
<p>Carnegie Mellon:</p>
<p>Students determined to have financial need: 55%
Students whose need was fully met: 30%
Average percentage of need met: 82%</p>
<p>NYU:</p>
<p>Students determined to have financial need: 56%
Students whose need was fully met: N/A
Average percentage of need met: 69%</p>
<p>U Miami:</p>
<p>Students determined to have financial need: 52%
Students whose need was fully met: 39%
Average percentage of need met: 83%</p>
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<p>Yes, but . . . from the stats it looks like something under 20% of OOS students at UVA are receiving any form of need-based FA. Somehow the school is managing to attract an exceptionally affluent group of OOS students. Or, itâs defining âfinancial needâ so narrowly that most OOS admits with financial need elect to go elsewhere.</p>
<p>bclintonk is correct. UVa tends to have a fairly affluent student body,both instate and out of state. The OOS kids tend to skew toward the types of kids also applying to top schools, and many of them will be wealthy. Same with the Ivy League schools. They are all making strides to attract a more diverse socioeconomic crowd but the fact remains that the type of kids that are even in the position to look beyond their local community colleges and universities tend to have some money. Or have no money. Some of the Ivies are giving lots of aid these days to attract middle income students but of course the trick is getting in.</p>
<p>bluebayou,Thatâs a good point about the NY students at Cornell.
Brown had almost 50% of itsâ students coming from New England and the Mid Atlantic. They say their students come from all 50 states and 93 countries. UVa says they have students from 48 states and 119 countries. Lots of schools seem to be going after kids from other states and countries.</p>
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<p>UVa has always has a wealthy instate student body, too. But the point about meeting full need applies more towards applications, in my mind. Students who need a lot of need-based aid wonât apply to NYU or CMU, but would to Miami if they have decent test scores, for its automatic discounts. OTOH, since UVa advertises meeting full need, a family from a neighboring state can throw an app in the hopper.</p>
<p>UVa doesnât give discounts for scores like Miami does as there is no merit aid to speak of. There are 30+ Jefferson Scholars a year that get full tuition but that program is administered outside the University. A familyâs income would probably have to pretty low to get significant need based aid for most OOS applicants that would bring it closer to a studentâs cost at their instate school. The Common Application seems to be helping increase the amount of applicatons as much as anything.
In terms of Cornell, it is interesting that even with the reasons for having more NY residents, Cornell is getting over 60% of itsâ students from NY,New England and the Mid Atlantic.</p>