Why do UVA and Michigan have such low yields?

[xiggi]

<p>

Doh . . . could it be that a lot of their accepted students are going to HYPS? And yet Goldenboy wants to trash Michigan for the same phenomenon occurring there? Such nonsense!

</p>

<p>Clinton, if the strategy of Goldenboy was so transparent, why lower yourself to counter it in a battle of non-sense. Why is it so hard to understand that the yield is NOT a metric that is comparable between schools … for the numerous reasons that have been debated here. Again, while we can juxtapose the yield of BUY, Nebraska, and HYPS … we cannot draw any legitimate conclusions from the bare numbers. </p>

<p>The reality is that the elements that contribute to the yield at Michigan are NOT similar to Duke’s or Georgetown, even it pains me to admit that. Michigan’s yield is influenced by local and regional pulls in a much greater proportion than it might by the small number of students who were cross-admitted at HYPS. </p>

<p>But, in the end, I am not sure why going over those differences are important to anyone. People will continue to draw the conclusions they find pleasing to their own bias.</p>

[sevmom]

<p>Institutional assessment figures from UVa-haven’t found the most recent ones yet
Class entering 2007: 18046 applications
instate applications 7136 (67.0 yield)
out of state apps 10910 (34.3% yield)</p>

<p>Class entering 2008: 18598 apps-first year without ED
instate 7408 (63.0 % yield)
out of state 11190(32.9 % yield)</p>

<p>Duke apps for class entering in 2008 including ED 17748 41.7% yield
I know Duke’s current apps are up substantially .</p>

<p>Instate number of apps for UVa tend to stay fairly consistent because there is a self selection process with instate kids. They tend to know if they have a shot at admission or not. UVa always has alot more OOS applicants. They had over 28000 applications this year. Many of the OOS applicants will also be applying to places like Duke and Ivies.</p>

<p>xiggi, It’s somewhat interesting to get pulled into this nonsense! goldenboy seems to have a knack for creating threads that invite some level of debate.</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>

@goldenboy

You’re being very disingenuous when you compare the yields of a state school like Michigan to a private school like Duke since the former should have a much higher yield because it offers discounted tuition to all applicants from the state of Michigan. The majority of its applicants receive subsidized in-state tuition prices so there’s an obvious financial incentive to attend over a highly ranked private school.

</p>

<p>This is just a factually false premise. I’ve explained it before but since it obviously didn’t register with Goldenboy, I’ll explain it again.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, students (and their families) don’t care about sticker price, they care about cost of attending net of FA.</p>

<p>You can divide Michigan’s class into thirds: 1/3 OOS, 1/3 in-state receiving need-based FA, and 1/3 in-state full-pay. With the 1/3 OOS, Michigan is generally at a cost disadvantage, because for this group it can’t match elite privates that meet 100% of need (or for that matter, in-state tuition at the applicant’s own in-state flagship). So except at the very high end of EFC (> Michigan’s OOS COA, which is generally about $5K or so less than that of elite privates), Michigan is generally at a cost disadvantage relative to the elite privates, and always relative to the applicant’s own state flagship. Yet despite this steep uphill climb, Michigan manages to fill 1/3 of its class with OOS students. Pretty impressive, I’d say.</p>

<p>Of the 2/3 of the class who are in-state, half (actually 48%, but close enough) receive need-based FA, and half don’t The half that do (= 1/3 of the total class) have EFC < Michigan’s in-state COA (about $25K). But these kids will pay the same to attend Michigan as they’d pay at any private school that meets 100% of need: they’ll pay their EFC, not a dime more, not a dime less. So for this group, Michigan’s low sticker price on tuition is irrelevant, because they’re going to be paying less than that anyway; FA will make up the rest, just as at the private school meeting 100% of need. No subsidy advantage there. Michigan might even be the higher-cost option for some in this group depending on what’s in the FA package (e.g., all grants v. grants/loans/work-study).</p>

<p>It’s only with the third group, in-state students with EFC > Michigan’s in-state COA, that Michigan offers a cost advantage relative to elite privates. For some in this group, it’s a large cost advantage. For others (those in, say, the $25K-$30K EFC range) it’s small, and might even be offset by, e.g., a merit award at another school. For that matter, Michigan State tries to pick off students in this group by offering a slightly lower COA (about $3K less) and enticing merit awards for kids with high stats. (Merit money is a magnet for high-EFC kids because they’ll get little or no need-based FA; for high-need kids, merit money usually just goes to offset need-based aid, so it may not change their financial position). There are other, even lower-cost in-state competitors, but Michigan doesn’t lose so many of the kids it wants to them.</p>

<p>So with 1/3 of the class (OOS) Michigan’s at a cost disadvantage, with another 1/3 (in-state low-EFC) there’s no advantage either way, and with another third of the class (in-state high-EFC) Michigan can offer a cost advantage relative to high-priced privates, but not relative to in-state competitors. That seems to me like it adds up to no net cost advantage when you consider the full student body.</p>

<p>As usual, GoldenBoy is just wallowing in his own unwarranted assumptions.</p>

[sevmom]

<p>What I find interesting is goldenboy’s assumption that “nobody” who got into a higher ranked school would even think to pick a school like UVa. Yes, for someone obsessed with prestige, that may be pretty common. They will pick a school higher ranked whether it’s the best place for them or not. The example I gave earlier is of course anecdotal but I’m sure others have chosen UVa over other schools- the NY kid we know who was deferred by UVa ED (in 07-last year for ED) and ended up at Cornell. UVa was clearly his first choice since he applied ED and he is there now for grad school. A poster,jc40,(from Texas) has posted many times here that her daughter picked UVa over higher ranked schools. To claim that “nobody” would do so is clearly absurd.</p>

[jc40]

<p>

OOS COA, which is generally about $5K or so less than that of elite privates)

</p>

<p>On a purely anecdotal level, our D chose UVA OOS in part because it was going to cost almost 10K per year less than Northwestern (full pay). I know she has many OOS friends who were also influenced by what some may feel an insignificant cost difference and chose the cheaper OOS public ivy over top 10-25 privates. In the end, $40K will cover a big chunk of her first year of med school, so it’s not chump change to us. Sevmom is precisely right…several of D’s Echols friend’s turned down Vandy, WUST, Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown, USC, Wake, ND, one turned down Brown, one Penn, and one Columbia. These are merely her closer friends. Who knows what schools the larger sample turned down.</p>

[barrons]

<p>I am getting a sense of deja vu. Has one of the most obnoxious posters from the old USnews board come back to life. Will the TTT rhetoric start soon?</p>

[sevmom]

<p>As jc40 notes, there can be many reasons an OOS kid would choose a school like UVa over a higher ranked one, whether it’s a better fit, better program, better financially, etc.</p>

[soccerguy315]

<p>

But it does make you wonder what public mission UVA thinks it’s serving, if it’s mainly educating the affluent at taxpayer expense (only partially, I realize).

</p>

<p>maybe the state should give UVA more money then… you know, a single digit percentage of operating expenses each year can only get UVA so far. The money has to come from somewhere.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Nobody who’s admitted to Dartmouth and Duke and whatever would even consider Michigan or UVA.

</p>

<p>“Nobody”? Give me a break. This is precisely the arrogant-Duke attitude that permeates CC, and that has made me think less positively of the school than I did before coming onto CC. Let me spot you a clue, Duke people. Gracious people can say, “Dartmouth, Duke, Michigan, UVA, all fine schools, can’t go wrong with any of them, pros and cons to each but personal choice.” It’s the arrogant losers who have to try to make sure that everyone knows how superior their school is and make sure to establish some kind of ladder and show everyone that they are at the top. It just makes you look small. Really small. And Duke seems to have a preponderance of boosters on CC who engage in this behavior. You don’t make Duke look one bit better by “picking” on Michigan and UVa, which are fine schools in their own right.</p>

[warblersrule]

<p>

@bclintonk

Michigan is generally at a cost disadvantage relative to the elite privates, and always relative to the applicant’s own state flagship. Yet despite this steep uphill climb, Michigan manages to fill 1/3 of its class with OOS students. Pretty impressive, I’d say.

Michigan’s size works to its advantage here. Many students are obsessed with rankings, and Michigan is frequently the highest ranked school they get into. Let’s do the math!</p>

<p>Let’s estimate that Michigan has a 33% yield for OOS students, which would be pretty good. OOS students make up roughly 2084 of the 6251 freshmen this year, so that would mean ~6250 OOS students were admitted. Even assuming a relatively high yield like 40% results in 5210 students being admitted. That’s 2-2.5 times as many students as are admitted at Dartmouth, Harvard, Hopkins, etc. </p>

<p>Michigan received 38,000 applications last year. Assuming that half were from OOS students (a bit generous), that’s 19,000 applicants for 5200-6200 slots (27-33% admitted). That looks pretty darned attractive compared to Penn (12%), Vanderbilt (16%), Columbia (7%), Rice (19%), WUStL (15%), Brown (9%), etc. </p>

<p>For a parallel, look at Berkeley. The number of admitted OOS students at Berkeley went up from 1110 for the class of 2013 to 3154 for the class of 2015, and the yield for such students correspondingly went from 19.5% to 34.0%. That is a HUGE increase and one that is easily explained – students are jumping at the chance to attend a top 20ish school they wouldn’t otherwise have the stats for. Meanwhile, Berkeley gets $$$. Win/win.</p>

<p>(Of course, that’s not to detract from Michigan’s excellence, and it does draw applicants away from some very good schools. Like Pizzagirl, I think goldenboy’s comments are pretty arrogant.)</p>

[Hunt]

<p>Those annoyed by the proposition that nobody would ever turn down the vastly more prestigious Duke for the lowly UVa or Michigan may be amused by this old thread:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/897859-duke-robertson-vs-nearly-full-ride-princeton.html?highlight=duke+scholarship[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/897859-duke-robertson-vs-nearly-full-ride-princeton.html?highlight=duke+scholarship&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[jc40]

<p>

Nobody who’s admitted to Dartmouth and Duke and whatever would even consider Michigan or UVA.

</p>

<p>Okay, missed this comment…There are two kids at UVA, both from our home state and both in D’s class of 2014 – the girl turned down Duke and the boy Dartmouth for UVA. I know both of these kids personally. They are not anomalies, goldenboy. Again, there are TONS of kids at UVA who turn down higher ranked schools. Take a poll of the small subset of Jefferson, Echols, and Rodman scholars and I bet you’ll find almost every one if them was admitted to higher ranked schools.</p>

[charlieschm]

<p>Never before have such thoughtful answers been provided to such a stupid original question.</p>

[kelsmom]

<p>Nobody who’s admitted to Dartmouth and Duke and whatever would even consider Michigan or UVA. </p>

<hr>

<p>Real life stories from my D’s class of 180 (Catholic prep school) …</p>

<h1>1 Turned down Yale and Johns Hopkins for UM</h1>

<h1>2 Turned down Stanford for UM</h1>

<h1>3 Turned down MIT for UM</h1>

<h1>4 Turned down Duke and Vanderbilt for … MSU (gasp!)</h1>

<h1>1 at UM med school (turned down Yale med)</h1>

<h1>2 currently in Peace Corp after working for a year as an engineer at a major company</h1>

<h1>3 currently in med school at Wayne State (turned down UM med)</h1>

<h1>4 currently in vet school at MSU</h1>

<p>I know it’s just so very hard to believe that people would throw their lives away that way, isn’t it?! (not)</p>

[Illyria]

<p>

People choose HYPS over Swat/Duke for sure but nobody even considers Michigan if they get into a top 15 USNWR school out of state.</p>

<p>Nobody who’s admitted to Dartmouth and Duke and whatever would even consider Michigan or UVA.

</p>

<p>Perhaps students/parents with a larger world view than that offered by USNWR rankings might note the position of Michigan in the rankings of world universities:</p>

<p>[Academic</a> Ranking of World Universities - 2011| Top 500 universities | Shanghai Ranking - 2011 | World University Ranking - 2011](<a href=“http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2011.html]Academic”>http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2011.html)</p>

<p>[Top</a> 400 - The Times Higher Education World University Rankings 2011-2012](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/top-400.html]Top”>http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/top-400.html)</p>

<p>[QS</a> World University Rankings - Topuniversities](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011]QS”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011)</p>

[goldenboy8784]

<p>

@Pizzagirl

“Nobody”? Give me a break. This is precisely the arrogant-Duke attitude that permeates CC, and that has made me think less positively of the school than I did before coming onto CC. Let me spot you a clue, Duke people.

LOL! Where did this come from? Judging a university based on anonymous posters who may or may not have attended such school reflects poor judgment on your part. I didn’t specifically bring Duke into the fore in isolation–it is you has done so. I’m not sure if anyone in the Duke community particularly cares about your public service announcement.</p>

<p>

@Pizzagirl

It’s the arrogant losers who have to try to make sure that everyone knows how superior their school is and make sure to establish some kind of ladder and show everyone that they are at the top. It just makes you look small. Really small. And Duke seems to have a preponderance of boosters on CC who engage in this behavior. You don’t make Duke look one bit better by “picking” on Michigan and UVa, which are fine schools in their own right.

No one was picking on anyone Pizzagirl except for you picking on Duke out of the blue, I started this thread to attempt to understand how two of the three best public universities in the country (UVA and Michigan) have lower yields than about 50 or so other public universities that don’t have close to the same cachet. Bclintonk and some other helpful posters have done a good job of answering that question so my doubts are at rest. Case closed.</p>

<p>Stating that Dartmouth and Duke are more favorable than Michigan or UVA doesn’t constitute “picking on them”. This is merely an easily recognizable trend that is confirmed by a combination of looking at a variety of print/net sources and seen empirically through decisions that play out in real life (i.e. what people decided in your high school or high schools near you).</p>

<p>According to Parchment.com which tracks thousands of matriculation decisions and employs the statistically sound Wilson’s method to show revealed preference, we can can be confident at the 95th percentile level that…</p>

<p>76% of those students admitted to and who choose between Dartmouth and Michigan pick Dartmouth.
[College</a> Cross-Admit Comparison: Dartmouth College vs University of Michigan - Ann Arbor | Parchment - College admissions predictions.](<a href=“Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.”>Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.)</p>

<p>84% of those admitted to and who choose between Duke and Michigan pick Duke.
[College</a> Cross-Admit Comparison: Duke University vs University of Michigan - Ann Arbor | Parchment - College admissions predictions.](<a href=“Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.”>Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.)</p>

<p>67% of those admitted to and who choose between Dartmouth and UVA pick Dartmouth.
[College</a> Cross-Admit Comparison: Dartmouth College vs University of Virginia | Parchment - College admissions predictions.](<a href=“Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.”>Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.)</p>

<p>84% of those admitted to and who choose between Duke and UVA pick Duke.
[College</a> Cross-Admit Comparison: Duke University vs University of Virginia | Parchment - College admissions predictions.](<a href=“Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.”>Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.)</p>

<p>Happy? UVA and Michigan are two of the best universities in the country but my point about desirability stands.</p>

<p>

@jc40

Take a poll of the small subset of Jefferson, Echols, and Rodman scholars and I bet you’ll find almost every one if them was admitted to higher ranked schools.

This is not surprising jc40–winning one of these scholarships definitely tilts the value proposition over to UVA’s side. You’d be hard pressed though to find, all things equal, someone turning down an Ivy or a peer private school for Michigan or UVA if said person doesn’t reside in the Wolverine State or the Old Dominion.</p>

<p>

@kelsmom

Real life stories from my D’s class of 180 (Catholic prep school) …</p>

<h1>1 Turned down Yale and Johns Hopkins for UM</h1>

<h1>2 Turned down Stanford for UM</h1>

<h1>3 Turned down MIT for UM</h1>

<h1>4 Turned down Duke and Vanderbilt for … MSU (gasp!)

</h1>

<p>Ok I"ll bite–the first three students turned Yale, Stanford and MIT because they received the Shipman Scholarship. The 4th candidate here received the ADS Scholarship at MSU and so no reason to venture South when MSU has such a good veterinary school.</p>

<p>Again these are all exceptions to the norm. I’m eagerly awaiting the day when an Eli or a Cardinal brags about turning down Michigan or UVA to go there when he/she is talking to friends, family, acquaintances, etc.</p>

[barrons]

<p>AKA garbage in garbage out.</p>

[sevmom]

<p>FYI-There is no money attached whatsoever to Echols and Rodman Scholars at UVa. None. Were you aware of that?
There are only about 30 Jefferson Scholars a year at UVa and there IS money attached to that but the program is not administered by UVa. Virtually all aid is need based.</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>

@Goldenboy

Nobody who’s admitted to Dartmouth and Duke and whatever would even consider Michigan or UVA.

</p>

<p>

@goldenboy

According to Parchment.com which tracks thousands of matriculation decisions and employs the statistically sound Wilson’s method to show revealed preference, we can can be confident at the 95th percentile level that…</p>

<p>76% of those students admitted to and who choose between Dartmouth and Michigan pick Dartmouth.</p>

<p>84% of those admitted to and who choose between Duke and Michigan pick Duke.</p>

<p>67% of those admitted to and who choose between Dartmouth and UVA pick Dartmouth.</p>

<p>84% of those admitted to and who choose between Duke and UVA pick Duke.</p>

<p>Happy? UVA and Michigan are two of the best universities in the country but my point about desirability stands.

</p>

<p>No, your second quote here clearly refutes your first. Michigan wins 1 out of 4 against Dartmouth, and UVA wins 1 out of 3 against Dartmouth. Neither does as well against Duke, but that’s still about 1 out of 6, which is not “nobody.” And Dartmouth and Duke lose most of their cross-admit battles against HYPS. Well, whoop-de-doo! Tell me something new.</p>

<p>Look, if you had just said something reasonable like “Most cross-admits choose Duke or Dartmouth over Michigan or Virginia,” we’d all have quietly agreed and moved on. But when you make such obviously false statements as, "Nobody who’s admitted to Dartmouth and Duke and whatever would even consider Michigan or UVA,” it’s just obvious hyperbole. As your second quote above proves, many people who are admitted to Duke and Dartmouth do cross-apply to Michigan and/or Virginia, and *do consider *a choice between these schools—enough for Parchment.com to assemble stats on it. And of those who consider that choice, a non-trivial number—actually, a pretty healthy minority, especially against Dartmouth—choose Michigan or Virginia. So your original statement was just flatly wrong, and your second statement, far from being a confirmation of your original point, is clearly a refutation of it.</p>

[goldenboy8784]

<p>

@bclintonk

No, your second quote here clearly refutes your first. Michigan wins 1 out of 4 against Dartmouth, and UVA wins 1 out of 3 against Dartmouth. Neither does as well against Duke, but that’s still about 1 out of 6, which is not “nobody.” And Dartmouth and Duke lose most of their cross-admit battles against HYPS. Well, whoop-de-doo! Tell me something new.</p>

<p>Look, if you had just said something reasonable like “Most cross-admits choose Duke or Dartmouth over Michigan or Virginia,” we’d all have quietly agreed and moved on. But when you make such obviously false statements as, "Nobody who’s admitted to Dartmouth and Duke and whatever would even consider Michigan or UVA,” it’s just obvious hyperbole. As your second quote above proves, many people who are admitted to Duke and Dartmouth do cross-apply to Michigan and/or Virginia, and do consider a choice between these schools—enough for Parchment.com to assemble stats on it. And of those who consider that choice, a non-trivial number—actually, a pretty healthy minority, especially against Dartmouth—choose Michigan or Virginia. So your original statement was just flatly wrong, and your second statement, far from being a confirmation of your original point, is clearly a refutation of it.

</p>

<p>Fair enough, I apologize my first post. I should have stated that it’s rare for an OOS student to choose UVA and Michigan over Dartmouth and Duke. I would guess that the majority of those that picked UVA and Michigan over these two privates were in-state in Michigan or Virginia. I’m actually surprised that Dartmouth and Duke did so well considering you would think the majority of the overlap between Dartmouth and Michigan or Duke and UVA would be within the Wolverine State or Old Dominion.</p>

<p>I think it speaks volumes of how affordable these elite private schools have become vis-a-vis public flagships who are experiencing tuition hikes with no greater FA incentives to compensate.</p>