Why does Kelley get no respect?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Indiana University - Bloomington
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<p>Again, thanks for your detailed posts and the valuable links. The Accounting ranking link is very pertinent and places Kelley rather well. That is impressive, and more so because of the consistency over the years.</p>

<p>Now, with respect to the demand for Kelley incoming admits, I definitely see your point of view there. However, I would submit that this is a parochial point of view, from the perspective of the administrators (and the admissions group) of the school.</p>

<p>As you and others have noted, due to the overall economy, recruiting and recruiters are down at Kelley. By about 21%. That is a LOT! One reason the Finance percentages are higher is because the marketing/retail/general management jobs are down a lot, and overall recruiting is down. So ‘upper-level’ Finance is doing better, in ‘relative’ percentage terms. Is that the more important metric and long-term strategic driver for Kelley management?</p>

<p>My point is that this economy thing is not a 1-2 year phenomenon. As Bernanke and others economists have noted, unemployement (and recruiting) will not fully recover to pre-2008 levels, for many years. 3, maybe 5, or even 7 years. I am a Finance guy, a global one, and have (I believe) both a solid macro/strategic and detailed (sectoral) view of the markets. I only see modest, gradual, slow improvement in recruiting for several years.</p>

<p>So, yes you have good incoming demand for Kelley undergrads. That’s good for Kelley’s revenue base. But what about the poor students? Not just the top 25%-30%, but 90%-95% of them? Are the bottom 25%-30% potentially roadkill? </p>

<p>I believe Kelley’s probem is that Kelley starts from a huge base (supply) of 1,500 grads per year. Absorbing the Kelley huge supply in TODAY’s marketplace is THE issue. Can Kelley confidently say that Kelley will be able (through other internal recruitment marketing actions, irrepective of the economy) to bring the Kelley recruitment numbers to 2007 and prior levels next year? If not, what will happen to the poor Kelley grads in 2011, 2012, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015…</p>

<p>Even with just 15% of Kelley undergrad supply unemployed, or not getting a job offer, even 3 months after graduation, that’s over 200 grads per year. Keep that up for a few years, and depression will set in within the batches following them. Freshmen, Sophomores will begin to hear about the unemployed Kelley grads above them, growing each year. Particularly if Kelley increases supply, by increasing either direct admits, or greater numbers of non Freshman-direct admits the problem will get worse. What then? Where will Kelley be in 3-5 years. </p>

<p>I suggest someone at Kelley should close their eyes, relax, focus, think of the recruiting world as it could exist for the next several years, and then work that vision backwards and think about today’s actions. In my opinion, the most important characteristic of management is to anticipate problems and be proactive. To do this, one has to be brave and action-oriented and not wait and react when the damage is done!</p>

<p>I humbly implore caution on the part of Kelley’s admissions’ supply pool of undergrads because I do see a cascading series of poor recruiting years, negatively impacting Freshman and Sophomore morale in 2-3 years. I honestly believe the chances are quite high that Kelley’s huge supply of undergrads will set it back in a few years and this will lead to significant internal cognitive dissonance in the rank and file. It has the risk of becoming a psychological, self-feeding feedback loop. This is largely a macro driven problem that in my view requires an adjustment response. The current base of Kelley grads will be too high for the economy to absorb for several years.</p>

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<p>Sorry to say that internships are not sufficient. Real hard job offers are what’s needed.</p>

<p>An intern is a low risk, temporary move for a large Corporation, or a Big 4 Accounting company. I may have brought in X interns/year in the past 5 years, and offered jobs to say 35%. I can now still bring in the same X interns per year, be even more selective, and only offer jobs to 28% of those interns. </p>

<p>From the point of view of the interns that would be decline in my full-time recruiting of 20%. It would be hard for a specific individual to see this macro picture, that’s why macro stats are important. Trust me, I’m a very quantiative guy and have run some large complex global financial services businesses.</p>

<p>The global economy in the developed world (North America and Europe) will be in slow growth mode for several years.</p>

23

<p>These are good discussions. My S has been admitted as a DA for Kelley. However, I am not sure if he can be in the top 40% when he gets to Junior/Senior year. Since I agree with quantman07’s view on economy, I am worried about my boy’s job prospect four years from now. </p>

<p>This supply-demand problem is not for Kelley alone. Many Law schools and Business schools around the nation have similar problems. It is not very helpful for Kelley to cut back the enrollment on their own. In addition, a students with true business aptitude probably has better job prospect than his classmates with higher GPA. I think that students/parents have to watch the trend and adjust accordingly.</p>

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<p>ACE550:</p>

<p>Re your post that says: “This supply-demand problem is not for Kelley alone. Many Law schools and Business schools around the nation have similar problems. It is not very helpful for Kelley to cut back the enrollment on their own.”</p>

<p>I would suggest you look at the Business Week stats for 2010, 2009 and 2008. Here are the links:</p>

<p>[Top</a> Undergraduate Business Programs 2010 - BusinessWeek](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>

<p>[The</a> Top Undergraduate Business Programs - BusinessWeek](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>

<p>[The</a> Top Undergraduate Business Programs - BusinessWeek](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>

<p>Here is summary of some the top 25 schools’ Total undergrad populations which have large undergraduate Business School populations like IU:</p>

<p>IU-Kelley Wharton NYU Boston College Univ of Texas USC Notre Dame</p>

<p>2010 4,839 2,560 2,389 1,970 3,914 3,548 1,750</p>

<p>2009 4,576 2,528 2,305 1,936 3,942 3,509 1,669</p>

<p>2008 4,069 2,519 2,335 1,970 3,969 3,497 1,626</p>

<p>I think it’s easy to see a couple of things:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Kelley started off from a very large base in 2008</p></li>
<li><p>Kelley then added supply to that already large base, at a rate that makes it difficult to place all these students, due to falling external demand.</p></li>
<li><p>Could Wharton have grown their supply, if they wanted, and still had close to the current entry stats of their incoming classes? Sure they could. But, they did not. I would submit that many other schools could have as well. But, they did not.</p></li>
<li><p>With IU now embarking on a renovation and expansion of their undergraduate building, will they continue to grow supply at the above rates, even when the economy is saying “hey, we can’t absorb the same supply anymore”.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I believe Kelley is shooting themselves in the foot, but they don’t feel the pain. They are raking in the $, and the graduating seniors without the jobs will be left to feel the pain.</p>

<p>Does anyone else see the simple math and demand-supply economics here? Where are the Kelley Economics, Finance and Marketing/Business Strategy professors on this? Do they need an external consultant to show them the facts? C’mon!</p>

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<p>But you also need to consider the fact that this grows the alumni base. Alumni are an invaluable asset for any undergrad trying to find a job.</p>

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<p>Your post took me aback. Do you have any data to support this position? Could you please clarify?</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Kelley undergrad has been putting out lots more alumni than Wharton or NYU, for example, for several years. Which alumni base is stronger in terms of connections that translate in lots of great jobs? Kelley vs. the others in the top 20. If there is good concrete data to support your position re the incremental supply and the bottom 20%-25% of Kelley undergrads, then I’d love to see it. If demand is really that good because of the Alumni base, then that is news that should be trumpeted and the data would speak for itself.</p></li>
<li><p>If the bottom 20% of the Kelley undergrads don’t get good jobs, then what good is having them in the alumni pool. Are they going to be able to recruit other Kelley grads, if they can’t get jobs? If it’s to get together and have a good time, OK. But, I was talking about jobs and placement.</p></li>
<li><p>If you still feel that you have a valid position, then why are the other top schools not doing it? You know these B-Schools do watch what the others are doing. If something as simple as what you say is valid, then where are the followers?</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Sorry, but I fail to even see the logic in your position, given the UCS data. Recruiting was down 21%, year over year.</p>

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<p>IU has an excellent reason for not decreasing the growth of Kelley that has virtually nothing to do with placing graduates in the tough economic climate and everything to do with raising the perception of educational quality at the university as a whole. The latter goal is probably way more important in the long run for IU than what could be a short-term (nobody can say for sure) setback for Kelley and its unplaced undergraduates. </p>

<p>IU until very recently has had the lowest SAT scores of all the Big Ten schools. If you check the most recent common data sets, however, you will see that IU has made incredible strides in improving the standardized test scores of incoming freshmen. </p>

<p>This article from 2005 hinted at the new strategies that IU would employ to improve the standardized test scores. <a href="http://www..com/thread.php?thread_id=353530&mc=18&forum_id=1#5000397%5B/url%5D">http://www..com/thread.php?thread_id=353530&mc=18&forum_id=1#5000397</a> The article does not mention, however, the tool that undoubtedly had the biggest effect. The incredible success can be revealed in just a few numbers of test scores for the entering freshman class.
**
IU Entering class ACT 30+ SAT Critical Reading (Math) 700+
2005-2006 9.9% 5.2% (7.5%)
2009-2010 23.3% 7.6% (11.4%)**</p>

<p>So in just four years IU way more than double the number of entering freshman having a composite ACT score of 30 or more. IU is no longer last in standardized test scores in the big ten. They probably passed at least three or four schools in just four years. I looked it up a few months ago comparing common data sets and the number was three or four, but am not motivated enough right now to look it up again.</p>

<p>So how did IU attract all of these high achievers? They simply got high achieving out of state students to go to Kelley. The effects were dramatic on the standardized test scores of the university as a whole. IU brought in an enrollment manager from UA-Birmingham who started the automatic scholarships program, which made OOS tuition for high-achieving students competitive with many in-state flagships (U. of Illinois most significantly). The automatic scholarships and shrewd marketing of Kelley’s top programs and the business school as a whole in places like suburban Chicago and metro NYC has yielded a crop of high achieving out of staters and their higher tuition payments to Bloomington.</p>

<p>Quantman, you argue that Kelley needs to limit the size of future freshmen classes to meet the decreased demand for business majors. </p>

<p>There are lots of reasons not to do that (one being that Kelley is 15-20% internationals; do they even report to career services when they get a job in their home country?). The biggest reason is that, politically, IU cannot afford the criticism from Indiana taxpayers that would result from Kelley becoming too difficult for their kids to get into. This idea assumes that most of the high achievers at Kelley are OOS; the numbers above can be used to support this idea. Why? Because increases of 700+ in SAT CR and Math scores is not nearly as high as the 30+ SAT composite score increases. Indiana students overwhelmingly take the SAT only. OOS students are the ones taking the ACT (every high school student in Illinois takes the ACT, and Kelley is swimming with suburban Chicagoans). </p>

<p>So if Kelley is admitting tons of high-achieving OOS, it MUST increase the size of its classes every year to be able to keep getting the Indiana kids in and prevent a political backlash from taxpayers and state legislators.</p>

<p>Here is a set of numbers that shows the dramatic increase in the standardized test scores of Kelley students.</p>

<p>**SAT median score for entering Kelley class:</p>

<p>2005-2006: 1190
2009-2010: 1300**</p>

<p>So for Kelley to shrink their enrollment in response to decreased demand for its graduates would result in two huge problems. 1) It would cause IU’s standardized test scores to revert back to a few years ago when they were the lowest in the Big Ten. I don’t think IU wants to be in that position again. 2) Nor does the IU administration want to anger Indiana taxpayers by making it too difficult for their kids to get into Kelley by admitting large numbers of high achieving OOS students without creating more room for Indiana kids to get in.</p>

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<p>I sam saying that based on my experiences with alum. I have contacted several and they have gone out of their way to help me with my resume, cover letter, give me mock interviews, and push their firm to give me real interviews. If it were not for our alumni network I would have a much, much harder time getting a job.</p>

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<p>Thanks, maxellis for your feedback. That is good to hear, and I’m extremely happy for you. Clearly, the Kelley alumni is a big asset for the Kelley students. From my point of view, that is a big plus for Kelley.</p>

<p>I generally like to use anecdotal or individual feedback to support macro level data, because a few, or even many examples, is suppportive info, but does not supercede macro level ‘totality of data’.</p>

<p>It is the totality of the placement data which describes the employment outcomes for the total body of Kelley students, year over year, over the years. And, embedded in that placement outcomes data is the positive impact of the growing Kelley alumni network.</p>

<p>Again, that being said, it is good to hear your specific experience and I am impressed.</p>

30

<p>Thanks, bthomp1 for your comprehensive response, as always.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I think the CC site seems to have suppressed your link. Perhaps, you could explain the link in words and we can try to pull it up. I certainly would like to see it.</p></li>
<li><p>Re international students, the Business Week data (data received directly from IU and Kelley, per BW, shows 13% international and 0.5% for Canada, for a total of 13.5%). Given this, could you please explain where your data on Kelley Business School’s % of undergraduate students being 15%-20% of the student population comes from?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Here is the BW data I am looking at:</p>

<p>[Indiana</a> University: Undergraduate Profile ? BusinessWeek](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>

<p>Also, I see your point of OOS students from NYC area and Chicago area helping take up the ACT stats. The above link shows Northeast Region making up 7% of IU population.</p>

<p>As for Chicago area, that statistic is embedded within the Midwest region statistic of 84%(of the 86.5% of total US students), so would you by any chance know how much of the 84% is from Indiana, and then we can get a sense for how much of the midwest % is ex-Indiana? Thanks.</p>

<ol>
<li>As for your larger points re the incoming class, the progress in raising average SAT and ACT scores, I find all of that frankly to be extremely impressive. I think IU and Kelley need to be commended for their successful strategy in recent years, and the bottomline results of successfully implementing that strategy.</li>
</ol>

<p>So, I am going to accept your arguments re the mission of IU and Kelley, within the pragmatic context of it being an Indiana state, and all of its corresponding limitations, particularly funding and political. Consequently, I will not belabor my points re reducing the incoming class because I believe that has zero chance of happening.</p>

<ol>
<li>Now, given 3. above, I think my focus then will be on the practical aspects of managing/administering the ballooning Kelley undergrad class sizes and its outcomes.</li>
</ol>

<p>In relation to the ballooning size of the Kelley undergrad class sizes, how many additional staff has Kelley ADDED to:</p>

<p>a) Kelley undergrad faculty and how have the average Kelley class sizes changed in the last 3-4 years, and specifically graduate assistant teachers/versus faculty,</p>

<p>b) Kelley undergrad counseling staff, because I am sure this year-over-year % increase in incoming class sizes will be creating other limiting and scheduling optimization problems for the students. FYI, I mean this as someone well versed in Optimization Techniques and Operations Research approaches to optimization a set of complex variables for a given population, on a day-to-day basis.</p>

<p>c) Kelley undergrad career services staff over the last 3-4 years, and recruiter acquisitions/relations and recruiter management staff?</p>

<p>The reason for the above questions is due to the stats from the Business Week data (see my posts above for links to 2010, 2009 and 2008 data) that show declining scores in the Kelley student survey:</p>

<pre><code> IU-Kelley Business Week data Ranks for Indiviual Metrics

Student Survey/        Recruiter Survey/   MBA Feeder School/  Academic Quality

</code></pre>

<p>2008 9 14 37 44</p>

<p>2009 15 14 29 27</p>

<p>2010 22 19 30 23</p>

<p>To me, this says student satisfaction is declining steadily for Kelley. Let’s remember that the external environment and the job situation impact is being felt by all students, across all business schools in that survey.</p>

<p>So, while the academic quality rank is up for Kelley (impressive, by the way), student satisfaction is down.</p>

<p>Ergo, my point about the large Kelley student supply, getting even larger over the years, resulting in declining student outcomes at/near graduation. </p>

<p>I am a results and outcomes driven guy, which I why continue to be persistent here. My D is over the 30 ACT and 700 Math SAT number percentage buckets you referenced, so I believe she will do reasonably well. However, I still care about the outcomes for the school as a whole, because I believe in the long-term this is important to the perception of the Kelley business school brand, relative to other top business school brands.</p>

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<p>I got the 15-20% internationals by looking at the percentages for finance majors in junior and senior classes. It was convenient at the time to use those numbers since they were right in front of me. 13.5% is still a lot and does not diminish my argument by much.</p>

<p>Here is a copy of the article for the link that would not work.
<a href=“http://rapidshare.com/files/441735294/Date.docx[/url]”>http://rapidshare.com/files/441735294/Date.docx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I don’t know where to get exact OOS figures for IU and Kelley by state. A lot can be inferred from the list of Founders Scholars, however, which ostensibly has the hometown of each recipient. Here is the most recent digitalized list. Fourteen pages of students from Illinois. Far, far more than any other state than Indiana. And the Indiana list overstates the actual number from Indiana, as many recipients list only their address at IU, which will usually be in Bloomington, of course, when they actually come from someplace else.
<a href=“http://rapidshare.com/files/441735237/Founders_Scholars_2009_ceremony.PDF[/url]”>http://rapidshare.com/files/441735237/Founders_Scholars_2009_ceremony.PDF&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Re the Student Satisfaction survey, I would be shocked if Businessweek’s methodology consists of sampling techniques any more valid than merely inviting students to fill out an online questionaire, which would make their results less than worthless. MIT went from 5th in “student satisfaction” in 2009 to 40th this year. My God, back in 2009 MIT Sloan was such a great business school. But in 2010 . . . That stat alone makes their survey a complete joke. Some numbers are crap, obviously, or not so obviously. Citing the bogus Businessweek numbers on Kelley student satisfaction as an introduction to suggesting that graduate students/ai’s are now teaching more classes . . . ? It’s not happening. Compare the list of Spring 2011 classes and instructors with the list of faculty at Kelley. Apart from graduate students leading discussion groups (as opposed to the lectures; graduate students everywhere tend to lead small group discussions) in very basic introductory courses, you won’t find graduate students teaching more than a few, if any, Kelley courses by themselves. I could not find any.</p>

<p>[Schedule</a> of Classes Bulletin for the Bloomington campus for Spring 2011](<a href=“http://registrar.indiana.edu/scheduleoclasses/prl/soc4112fac.html]Schedule”>http://registrar.indiana.edu/scheduleoclasses/prl/soc4112fac.html)</p>

<p>[Directory:</a> Faculty: Kelley School of Business: Indiana University Bloomington](<a href=“http://kelley.iu.edu/facultyglobal/directory.cfm]Directory:”>http://kelley.iu.edu/facultyglobal/directory.cfm)</p>

<p>Do you have any source of numbers to support your statement, “I am sure this year-over-year % increase in incoming class sizes will be creating other limiting and scheduling optimization problems for the students.” Kelley guarantees that you will get the classes you need to graduate in four years. Check the schedule above and you will see still see available seats (even though classes start tomorrow) for most upper level Kelley classes early in the early morning or after 5pm, which are the time slots available for adding new sections when initial offerings of sections fill up. </p>

<p>I don’t know of any numbers showing the effect of the “ballooning size of the Kelley undergrad class sizes, how many additional staff has Kelley ADDED to”, for instance, the career services office. I know the career office reported 2,400 coaching appointments of students in their 2009-10 annual report, as opposed to 800 coaching appointments in the 2006-07 annual report. Sounds like the career services office has more than adequately responded to the ballooning in terms of one-on-one counseling.</p>

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<p>Bthomp:</p>

<p>I am somewhat disapponited that you picked a school which only has a base of 160 total undergrad students, all 4 years, to make your statistical argument and bash the rankings using that one metric from a small sample size school. With that few students, versus IU with 4,800, you are obviously going to get wild statistical gyrations for MIT due to the small sample size. I assume you are exceedingly familiar with statistics?</p>

<p>So, I am surprised to see you going off the deep end with this rant, and I quote:</p>

<p>“Re the Student Satisfaction survey, I would be shocked if Businessweek’s methodology consists of sampling techniques any more valid than merely inviting students to fill out an online questionaire, which would make their results less than worthless. MIT went from 5th in “student satisfaction” in 2009 to 40th this year. My God, back in 2009 MIT was such a great school. But in 2010 . . . That stat alone makes their survey a complete joke. Some numbers are crap, obviously, or not so obviously. Citing the bogus Businessweek numbers on Kelley student satisfaction as an introduction to suggesting that graduate students/ai’s are now teaching more classes . . . ? It’s not happening.”</p>

<p>This is quite disheartening, given your considered posts of the past.</p>

<p>Perhaps, you’d like to rethink that. One thing frustration does to people is they lose it when the they don’t like the numbers. </p>

<p>Does the BW methodology have limitations? Sure. But we as the public have only that and US News, which is highly skewed towards what the faculty think of each other. </p>

<p>I’m not sure when I last hired someone from business school based on faculty peer reviews of each other, which is highly focused on Research. WHY? Because most faculty largely get tenure based on what they publish. This has very limited relevance for executives who recruit. </p>

<p>I care more about what students think, what recruiters think, and the placement data (% placement, what kinds of jobs), mean salary and schools as feeders to the top-ranked MBA programs. </p>

<p>I would suggest that anyone out there looking at business schools should ask top exectuives they know (through their family and friends), if this approach is close to what happens in the real world. Please do you own diligence folks.</p>

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<p>If the MIT sample were too small, as you suggest, a reliable poll would not include the numbers it in its study. I used the bogus poll to make absolutely no conclusions, except the sarcastic one about MIT going downhill. Obviously, the BW “methodological limitations” you admit to the poll having are not significant enough to stop you from making sweeping negative generalizations about Kelley’s scheduling, use of teaching assistants, career services, etc.-- some of which I provided solid evidence of not happening. </p>

<p>“A base of 160 total undergraduates”? Where did that number come from? I compared 2009 MIT student satisfaction with 2010. 2009 there were 225 students in MIT’s business program, 2010 there were 190. 160? </p>

<p>I won’t respond to any more of your posts since they seem to be so “disheartening” to you.</p>

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<p>Ok, thanks. All the best to you.</p>

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<p>On a micro level, when a parent has a child who wants to major in business, and the ‘top’ schools are out of the question for financial or academic reasons, Kelley provides an excellent value-packed option to consider.</p>

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<p>Well said IllnoisMom2006! My daughter is from NY ,was direct admit and qualified for distinction scholarship. Yes, it is true that some people from east coast are not as familiar with Kelley. However, my daughter is academically challenged and I feel Kelley is a good value. I feel as confident as I can in this economy that she is acquiring the skills necessary to secure a job after graduation and be self sufficient. People concerned with prestige will always be more comfortable with the brand names like Stern. Stern costs about 60,000 per year compared to the less than 30,000 that I pay for Kelley. No one can really quantify what you get for that extra 30,000, Anyone who feels it is worth it and can afford it , should do so. I agree Kelley is an excellent value-packed option .</p>

37

<p>I selected Kelley because I thought it was a good value. I am quite satisfied with my professors and the curriculum, however, it remains to be seen what type of job opportunities will be available to me as a Kelley grad.</p>

38

<p>Bigger question is what kind of job do you want?</p>

39

<p>or more importantly…where do you want to work…kelley is a regional school for the most part with a few jobs in the NY area and west coast.</p>

40

<p>Or, as is more often the case, few people who WANT to work in NY. NY is not for everybody for many reasons.Same for LA/SF. And many from the midwest prefer to stay in the midwest and work in Chicago, Minny, Indy, Cinci, etc. There are lots of nice affordable cities in the midwest. I’d bet most who really want to go to NY can find jobs there.</p>