<p>So some of my friends have recently been accepted to DO programs, but they tell me it's the exact same thing as getting an MD. Basically, they're doctors and they'll be doing the exact same thing as doctors and working in the exact same place as doctors and that the only way you would know they're not a MD doctor is if you specifically look at their degree on the wall in their office.</p>
<p>Don't DO schools have like WAY lower MCAT numbers? Why doesn't everyone just get a DO and be a doctor? It's like, the cheater's way of becoming a doctor. Same prestige, same job, same pay, lesser work (as in, you don't need as high of a GPA or MCAT score).</p>
<p>It is changing, but for many years, DOs were considered those who could not get into med schools. There are still alot of older folks who won’t go to a DO.</p>
<p>Osteopathic schools (DO) were created many years ago as an alternative to Allopathic medical schools (MD). Their philosophy rejected “traditional” medical training and instead emphasized manipulation of joints and bones to treat and diagnose diseases. They believed in a more “holistic” approach to medicine.</p>
<p>But apparently, a few decades ago osteopaths began to push for the same standing as medical doctors, (access to residency training, etc) and slowly their schools began to mirror allopathic medical schools in order to access markets, gain recognition and credentials. And I think that is where the stigma sticks.The schools were created with a different philosophy of training, yet you will never find an osteopath that uses manipulation techniques while treating patients. This is even bringing into question the need for “osteopathic medicine” at this time.</p>
<p>Even now, the great majority of students that attend DO schools are those that do not get into any medical schools. If you look at the stats, DO schools usually scrape the bottom of the barrel in terms of GPA/MCAT numbers. Some applicants even prefer to go to a caribbean med school instead of a DO US school -which to some may sound crazy-HOWEVER:</p>
<p>-The DO degree is not recognized as a medical degree in countries like France, Norway, South Africa and Jamaica. In those countries, DOs can only practice as chiropractors (manipulation)
-It was only 5 or 6 years ago that Britain began to give full medical licensure to US trained DOs ONLY
-The US will not grant licensure to a DO trained in another country (unlike a foreign MD, who can obtain licensure after passing the necessary exams)</p>
<p>I agree that things may be changing, but I wonder what will happen in the future. With more MD schools opening up, DO schools will continue to be less attractive, especially because their clinical training is not the best already (students having problems with access to patients).</p>
<p>As a side note, during my undergrad junior and senior year I worked with a large group of neurosurgeons who was recruiting - they specifically told the head hunter they were not interested in DOs (that is when I began to find out about it).</p>
<p>You guys have great responses, but I don’t see how they would be relevant to the question. I still don’t understand WHY people don’t get DOs if the social stigma of a DO has worn off decades ago. A DO today is not a DO from the 1960s. I’ve taken note of a few friends that have dropped out of being pre med altogether because they wouldn’t qualify for an MD school, but they won’t consider DO or Carribbean schoosl at all. I can understand the Caribbean school thing because of the geographical issues and being away in another country for a long time…but DOs…it’s just an MD with 1 different letter in it.</p>
<p>1) “It is changing, but for many years, DOs were considered those who could not get into med schools. There are still alot of older folks who won’t go to a DO.”</p>
<p>-Right. So for all that matters, in the 1960s-1980s, DOs were basically no good. But it’s 2011 now and apparently it has changed right?</p>
<p>2) The DO degree is not recognized as a medical degree in countries like France, Norway, South Africa and Jamaica. In those countries, DOs can only practice as chiropractors (manipulation)</p>
<p>-For the most part this doesn’t matter to the majority of American pre med college students though since most of them want to practice in the United States and not in Africa or Jamaica.</p>
<p>Sorry, I’m just confused. I talked with my roommate yesterday and he was telling me how DOs are looked down upon. But then I asked, “Don’t they get the same jobs, same respect among the general public, same salary, and are still, unless specified, DOCTORS?” and he said “Well…if you put it that way…yeah…but MDs will always be better.” And there I am stumped. Does that really matter?</p>
<p>In all 50 states, DOs are equivalent to MDs in every way in terms of license to practice medicine (i.e. they both hold an unrestricted license to practice medicine, in contrast to midlevels like PAs or NPs who hold licenses to practice medicines with restrictions depending on the state).</p>
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<p>Thats a bit strong - I think it’s safe to say that “most” DO’s dont use OMM in their daily practice, but there are certainly some who do - I’m pretty sure they can bill for it, as well.</p>
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<p>They also won’t grant a license to foreign trained MDs who graduated from certain schools (i.e. those not recognized by the ECFMG or certain state licensing boards), so what’s your point? DO schools abroad are fundamentally different from DO programs in the US. DO’s abroad are typically not “physicians” but rather just an “osteopath” or a “diplomate of osteopathy” or something like that. They are basically equivalent to a US chiropractor. </p>
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<p>Again, thats because of the significant fundamental differences between the meaning of osteopathy in the US and abroad - and US-trained DOs are recognized in a few dozen foreign countries IIRC. Check with the AOA for more on that.</p>
<p>That’s one way of looking at it, I guess, but once you’re in med school (MD or DO), the workload is the same, so its not really an “easier” way. You study the same stuff, and have the same jobs post-graduation, so there’s no difference in workload there. Both DO and MD graduates pass their respective board exams at approximately the same levels (first-time pass rate)…</p>
<p>That’s not entirely true. It’s definitely worn off, but I’d say it’s still there. I especially notice it among my parents and their peers (in their 50s) and even among applicants–no one has to defend their plan to apply to MD schools, but most of the people I talk to spend at least a minute or two justifying why they’re applying to DO schools…and I assume that’s because there’s still some social stigma there.</p>
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<p>More or less. But you’ll still find that the averages of students attending allopathic schools (~3.7/31+) is noticeably higher than students attending osteopathic schools (~3.3/25+). I personally can’t think of any students who had acceptances to both MD and DO programs and chose the DO program, nor can I think of any students who were competitive for MD schools yet applied exclusively to DO schools (although I can certainly think of students who were competitive for DO schools exclusively applying to MD schools). For the most part, it seems like students in DO programs didn’t pick up acceptances to MD schools (for whatever reason, perhaps related to statistics). </p>
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<p>I was competitive for MD schools and currently attend one. I did not apply to any DO programs. While part of my decision was based on personally and professionally identifying with MD programs, there was definitely an element of “I’ve been working my tail off for as long as I can remember, and while I’m not so smug to say I deserve to go to an MD school, I’m going to do my best to end up at the best program I can,” which was definitely an MD program. </p>
<p>Guess it’s just hard to explain why</p>
<p>Edited to add: perhaps it’s a regional thing? All of my experiences have been in suburbs and small towns in the midwest.</p>
<p>Everyone is aiming to do their best. 4.0 and 45. If you get a 3.7 and 35, congrats, you’ll be a MD. If you end up with a 3.2 and 27, then you’ll likely be a DO, which is just fine. You don’t “aim” for a 3.2 and 27, do you? You don’t aim for a DO.</p>
<p>If your argument is, “well, if you aim for a 3.2, 27, you can have a more enjoyable undergrad,” then I have news for you. 1st, most of us who got very good stats and ended up at MD med schools still had very enjoyable undergraduate experiences. Secondly, premed is nothing compared to med school and residency. If you need to “take it easy” in undergrad, you’re going to be in major trouble.</p>
<p>In summary, people aim to do their best. If their scores end up good enough for allopathic med schools, then they go to allopathic med schools and get a MD and avoid the hassle. If they are not good enough for allopathic med schools, then they go to osteopathic med schools and still become physicians.</p>
<p>I currently go to a DO rec. by my neurologist. The DO choose this path not because of poor MCAT grades but because of a belief in that type of medicine. This DO operates out of a university pain clinic and provides holistic and other various pain related services. He goes by doctor and all of the help he gives me is truly appreciated. Now if only the insurance companies would cooperate.</p>
<p>I find one of the two following sides of the story in my experience around fellow college students:</p>
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<li><p>Students have no idea what a D.O. is (hence the social stigma of them not being as good because they’ve never heard of D.O. schools or don’t ever hear about good D.O. schools).</p></li>
<li><p>If they have heard of D.O. schools then they are viewed as being inferior to MD schools, the ‘real’ medical schools. D.O., in my experience, is still viewed as the ‘back up’ or the med school for kids who couldn’t make it to an MD school or the ‘fake’ MD school. These are not my viewpoints by any means, but it’s what I find to be true in some of my experience. Albeit, there are informed students who understand the differences between DO and MD schools and realize that DO isn’t all that different.</p></li>
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<p>In osteopathic circles, they are currently discussing their future because most do not practice osteopathic medicine, but allopathic medicine. There is a feeling that osteopathic medicine is a dying breed. </p>
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<p>Almost ALL MD foreign medical schools are recognized by the ECFMG. There is a very small number of foreign medical schools that are not recognized by the US (maybe some sketchy caribbean outfits). On the other hand, foreign trained DO physicians CAN NOT gain licensure in the US AT ALL. That was my point. They do not remotely come close.</p>
<p>And all this is exactly because of the fundamental differences of training. DO schools in the US have moved mainstream to gain recognition. In other words, they have become MORE ALLOPATHIC, yet the stigma still remains.</p>
<p>We are discussing why students would rather get an MD degree than a DO. One of them, is recognition. Personally, if I am going to spent 250 thousand dollars on my education, I want to be able to use my degree in planet Mars…just in case.</p>
<p>Having worked in institutions that have a DOs and MDs, I’ve seen both sides - places (in PA) where nobody cares one way or the other, and others where unofficially you’re told that they’ll never take a DO or even offer a DO a residency position. </p>
<p>Chances are if a department doesn’t have any DOs and they are well aware of the difference between DO and MD MCAT scores for acceptance, they’re not going to look favorably as long as they have enough MDs to fill their needs.</p>
<p>I also feel in the Asian community, more so than others, children going to DO schools elicits a colder response, whereas others are apt to say, “My s/d is going to become a doctor”.</p>
<p>I am currently applying to DO schools. My 70-year-old MD relative on the clinical faculty at the DO school near me actually encouraged me to apply. Average DO matriculants’ (who now constitute 23% of first year med students in the US) gpa/mcat are now 3.5/26.5, which is higher than every Caribbean school except maybe SGU. However, DO applicant volume has been skyrocketing in recent years and these stats are likely to keep rising. </p>
<p>Though DO’s are at a slight disadvantage in the residency application process, they are generally preferred over international/foreign medical grads-- the pecking order for most ACGME (MD) residency programs is US MD>US DO>US IMG>FMG. But since DO’s have their own (AOA) match, this issue is offset for the most part. </p>
<p>Because US MD’s have better residency opportunities it is wiser to take that route, but if unavailable, DO is an excellent backup option.</p>