I recall this same theme from the OP and essentially identical responses (including mine) appearing about a year ago on CC.
^^ Maybe we can make it an annual New Year’s tradition?
You keep saying that Princeton is basically a liberal arts college, but that’s not right. For one Princeton has a significant grad student population. It is significantly smaller than undergrad, but every department has them. Moreover, you’re completely ignoring the engineering school. Engineering is one of the biggest distinctions between different classifications of schools. Worth mentioning that engineering graduates both masters and PhDs
“just a Williams with a bigger endowment”
Many people believe that Williams and Amherst and Swarthmore provide the best undergraduate educational experience in the nation. When Harvard recognized that its teaching was playing second fiddle to its research, and wanted to upgrade its undergraduate teaching experience, its taskforce looked to Amherst as the model.
“It’s well known that there are many other colleges where students are much more satisfied with their academic experience,” said Paul Buttenwieser, a psychiatrist and author who is a member of the Harvard Board of Overseers, and who favors the report. “Amherst is always pointed to. Harvard should be as great at teaching as Amherst.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/education/10harvard.html?_r=0
It appears that Princeton, unlike Harvard, has chosen to prioritize the undergraduate experience (and a few areas of grad school), rather than create professional schools. More power to it. What difference does it make to you?
“It appears that Princeton, unlike Harvard, has chosen to prioritize the undergraduate experience (and a few areas of grad school), rather than create professional schools. More power to it. What difference does it make to you?”
It makes no “difference” to me at all. “Prioritizing undergraduate education” is great – but then don’t go around and pump your chest that you’re some great “University.” I suppose I would look across the desk of the President of Princeton and tell her that to be a real university she needs professional graduate schools; she would look back across that same desk and say, no, our Classics department is all we need for USNWR, and we focus on undergraduate education’ (so we dump our premeds onto every every other real university in the nation . . .) and we like it that way. ROLL EYES (both of us), Agree to disagree.
I am not arguing that my point of view makes a “difference” to me (I don’t even understand the context of your comment – as in difference against what, with what, how what, to what?? ), I am just stating a case. And the only argument I have heard against my case is that Pton “focuses on undergraduate education.” This being so, then by definition it has little or no interest in being a university with an extended focus on graduate education. This being so, I am arguing (for consistency sake) that Pton be moved by USNWR to the “LAC” section of its rankings and dropped entirely from the “National Universities” rankings. Anyone who bleats about “focus on undergraduate education” will surely recognize that that is the explicit mission statement of a LAC and not of a University in the modern sense. Drop the pretense; put Pton with the LACs.
Just to bring your information up to date, the president of Princeton is a man.
From the almighty (to you?) USNWR:
It doesn’t appear that professional schools have anything to do with it (though P-ton does have professional schools in addition to grad programs, just not med or law)
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/rankings-faq#8
I think the fact that Princeton does NOT have a Business or Law program, which are both KNOWN to be huge PROFIT CENTERS , i.e money makers- for colleges [fact- it doesnt cost U’s very much to actually TEACH Law or Business to students] makes it more of a “TRUE” University in many ways than many other U’s, imho.
The Graduate level programs it DOES offer are some of the best in the country- Or do you think A. Einstein came to Princeton in order to teach UGs’?
@makennacompton, what’s your address? I want to send you a few Princeton t-shirts since I think you’d really enjoy wearing them. I’ll be sure to get the ones that say “Princeton University,” not just “Princeton.”
;))
@GnocchiB Here are a couple of nice ones…
http://www.lookhuman.com/design/5319-princeton-just-kidding
http://www.redbubble.com/people/digerati/works/9655939-princeton-law-class-of-1851
Love those shirts!
We can agree that, on the basis of USNWR criteria, Pton is a contradiction:
(from poster above):
- What are National Universities?
National Universities offer a full range of undergraduate majors as well as master’s and doctoral degrees. In many cases, they place strong emphasis on research and receive federal money to support their research endeavors.
VERSUS:
- What are National Liberal Arts Colleges?
National Liberal Arts Colleges emphasize undergraduate education.
PS – I already have a “Princeton” t-shirt from my visit there.
I see nothing wrong with @makennacompton, or anyone for that matter, determining their own criteria for what constitutes a “University”. Using another objective measure which some might consider determinative, here’s another list of which of the USNews top 20 schools qualify as “Universities”.
Universities
- Princeton
- Harvard
- Yale
- Columbia
- Stanford
- MIT
- Duke
- UPenn
- CalTech
- Johns Hopkins
- Northwestern
- Brown
- Cornell
Not Universities
4. Chicago
12. Dartmouth
15. Vanderbilt
15. Washington University
18. Rice
18. Notre Dame
20. UC Berkeley
None of the schools on the second list met my kids’ criteria for an acceptable undergraduate experience, so they both chose colleges from the first list (Princeton and Duke).
Edit to add: Applying this criteria to the USNews list of top 20 LACs, only the following two qualify as “Universities”.
- Haverford
- Vassar
Also adding: I don’t believe the criteria I’ve used should universally be used to define what is or isn’t a “university” any more than I agree with @makennacompton’s but, as I wrote earlier, I’m fine with everyone using their own definitions.
I’m sorry but where does this ^^ list come from??
@sherpa Why would those be “not universities”? Some even have the all-important medical school.
Seems pretty pointless discussion here. It’s about the administrative structure of the institution, about which the OP probably knows nothing. Then again, another of the OP’s threads is entitled “Why doesn’t leg hair grow like head hair?” As they say, 'nuff said.
To quote myself:
- What are National Universities?
National Universities offer a full range of undergraduate majors as well as master’s and doctoral degrees. In many cases, they place strong emphasis on research and receive federal money to support their research endeavors.
VERSUS:
- What are National Liberal Arts Colleges?
National Liberal Arts Colleges emphasize undergraduate education.
Since Pton emphasizes undergraduate education (as all Pton apologists have thumped in this thread) as well as offering doctoral degrees, it would seem to me that USNWR could as easily transfer Pton into the LAC rankings as easily as letting it remain in the university rankings. Indeed, I would recommend they do so if only for the resulting controversy – so much more interesting then the annual ranking that moves a school up or down by a hair or two, with no real resulting public interest. Relegating Pton to the LAC list, perhaps behind Williams, would really engineer good times on the CC threads!
RE: "then again, another of the OP’s threads is entitled “Why doesn’t leg hair grow like head hair?”
Inquiring minds want to know . . . .
Too confusing. People would have to stop saying HYPS and have to say HYS, and then people who say WASP would get confused because the “P” is supposed to be for Pomona. WASPP just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Dartmouth college has Master’s and PhD programs. http://graduate.dartmouth.edu/programs/ So it is really a University.
I think ALL of sherpa’s “Not Universities” are universities. A university need not have professional schools. Princeton is a university. Their PhD programs in natural sciences (Physics, Math – John Nash), Economy, etc. are (near) the top in the world.
OP: Why is the ‘university’ or ‘college’ distinction so important? If you are applying to the undergraduate program, then the undergraduate focus of the school should be a big plus. When applying to a graduate or professional degree program, you consider the quality of respective programs and don’t worry about the quality of their undergraduate program. Examples of not so high UG but high prof school are the medical schools of Pittsburgh, Case Western, Rochester, BU, etc. Highly ranked UG but not so high medical school is Brown Univ, I think. Just consider the quality of product (i.e., UG) that you are paying for. When I was applying to a PhD program, I didn’t know anything about the reputation of their undergrad program, even after I graduated I still didn’t know or care about their UG program.