<p>I feel if you stay current in the technology, engineering can be very rewarding. I have been doing this I.T./Engineering for now 20 years. On top of that, I stay technical. I only do the technical management after kicking and screaming and even then I am in HR’s ears to hire someone to do the managerial stuff so I can return to the technical side.</p>
<p>I never said you told us to do accounting. What I am saying is what credentials or experience do you have to claim that engineering is such a horrible field to be in. I know VERY few of my classmates who graduated in May 2009 who don’t have jobs. Most of them had jobs before they graduated. Tht doesn’t sound nearly as bad as you have made it sound, now does it?</p>
<p>MANY senior engineers will be retiring between the years 2010-2015 (somewhere around those years), so there will be plenty of job opportunities for engineers(in certain fields).</p>
<p>Employment of engineers is expected to grow about as fast as the average for all occupations over the next decade, but growth will vary by specialty.
Overall job opportunities in engineering are expected to be good.</p>
<p>Plus engineering is a very broad field and after a few years experience you can move into other fields such as law and business.
I don’t see how it is a ‘crummy’ job. many of us do it because we like it and we know we will be free to switch to other fields if we desire to.
It’s okay if you don’t like engineering but don’t try to persuade the rest of us to dislike it too.</p>
<p>Oh and the fact that health care is a better field doesn’t mean we should do it. You do what you like. My sis is a nurse and I am going to be an engineer.</p>
<p>“What I am saying is what credentials or experience do you have to claim that engineering is such a horrible field to be in.”</p>
<hr>
<p>Well, I have a relative who is a chem engineer. But being an engineering major does not make one an expert on the job propsects in their field. Only when you enter the real world and get a job (or attempt to get a job) in your field can one be an expert. I am not an expert on engineering, but neither is an engineering student. Many college students have an unrealistic view of the economy when they are in school. They think that they are “special” and that things will work out differently for them. Many of them are are delusional. Now, I am not saying anyone here is delusional, but you can generally spot those who are delusional as the ones who brag about how their major pays more than everyone elses (and I see a lot of this on the engineering forum). </p>
<p>I’ve been out of school for 1 year, so I have a good view of the real world. But I will admit, when I was in school, my view of it was totally distorted.</p>
<p>I had offers, I just chose grad school. Even still, an engineering student has more credentials to comment on engineering career prospects than a bitter accountant one year out of school.</p>
<p>You know what - Homer is right. I mean, after 4 years all I’m getting is ~$80k for 40 hours a week and benefits and pension and 3 weeks of vacation a year. I mostly set my own hours, I work in a nice office and a laser lab and from home, and I get flown around the country to attend conferences, do field work, and meet with people in places like Las Vegas and San Diego. Plus they paid for my masters and are paying for my PhD. Oh, and its something I love to do. </p>
<p>That is pretty crummy.</p>
<p>Well, congratulations on the job comicfish. But it sounds like you graduated with your BS back when the economy was strong and not during the current recession. Am I right?</p>
<p>^^You’re getting 80K/year right out of college? Or by 4 years did you mean with 4 years work experience, after getting your degree?</p>
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</p>
<p>I respect personal preference. I really do. But I urge to expand the thought.
When the economy is good, not every accountants would get into the big 4. The salary in the past was higher than today, but this is how economy really work. Bad economy you get budget cut and potentially lower starting salary.</p>
<p>However, even when the economy is good, companies that are smart are often engaged in budget cut. The only difference is that the unemployment rate is usually a lot lower than when economy is bad.</p>
<p>Here is another thing I urge you to think before continuing with this personal preference: please think in the right context</p>
<p>This is 2010, the 21 century. Not 1960, not 1970.</p>
<p>I will walk through the history book with you.</p>
<p>The early colonial time was sea trading. The colonialists exported raw materials, cotton and farm goods. This was the purpose of setting here, because the British needs these things.</p>
<p>When they won the independence war, the colonialists continued to do sea trade. But building cities and new infrastructures required factories and skilled workers. Moreover, people were engaged in moving West-ward, and there you need machines and convenient transportations to commute and transport goods. Beyond that, military defense was critical to the survival of the new United States. </p>
<p>This was the reason why we had the industrial revolution throughout the 1800s. </p>
<p>At the end most of the lands were either colonized, independent (only a few), or ruled under a king or a monarch family.</p>
<p>Jumping to 1900s. The imperialism that President TR proposed extend the power and influences of American into South America and East Asia. The first and second world war, United States were engaged in the wars, and became the contractors of many alliances, in Europe and Asia. </p>
<p>The success of world war II boosted the military industries. The United States were known for its steel, military and oil industries at the time. This success affected every field, every area. Scientists and engineers were more money, and new inventions were put out every year, and people began to enjoy them.</p>
<p>In the 1950 - 1970 you had cold war. Note that half of the Europe was under the control of Soviet Union. Communism does not allowed any individual to become wealth (except the leaders themselves of course). Despite Soviet had produced many well known and exceptional scientists and engineers, the economy was destroyed. Being scientist and engineers were bad. They were being watched all the time. No freedom. No wealth. My Physics teacher in HS was an engineer under the Soviet. Other European countries were under reconstructions… they were weak as hell.</p>
<p>The cold war boosted another 30 years of demanding scientists and engineers, and thus more companies and more consumer goods. Note the more positions opened the more income, and more consumer spending. This is how economy really works. A raising and good cash flow.</p>
<p>By the time 1970s many Americans were able to attend colleges, and after the Vietnam war many young people returned to colleges.</p>
<p>By the time 1980s, Soviet Unions began to fell. By 1990s, Soviet Union fell apart.
1980s the Chinese re-opened its door, but this did not change the core value of world trade.
The reason why foreign investors are willing to build factories and invest lands there because the political and social conditions improved. In 1970s - 1990s very few people would outsource their factories to China, Indonesia, or Philippines because of the political and social unrests. Today every government wanted to keep these foreign investors there. The largest income came from the foreign investors. Governments today were often criticized apathetic to citizen, and favored big businesses and foreigners. </p>
<p>In 1990s you still had a few wars going on, and the Chinese was not as friendly as today. </p>
<p>This is 21th century. Internet, GPS, computers, people were able to afford them. You can travel long distance with air planes. You can do telecommunication to meet with your colleagues oversea. </p>
<p>Things are changing. The reason why you and many people misused the word “outsourcing” and making it so bad because you guys didn’t realize today is 2010. You guys were fooled by politicians. </p>
<p>Statistics are meaningless. They are data. They are numbers. You have to put the numbers in the right context, and compare it with the past. Use it to support your agreement or disagreement. This is what statistics is for. </p>
<p>Yes I know outsourcing is bad. But countries like China, Germany and India are raising. In 1990s Germany was weak as hell. China began to shift its pure communism into capatial communism. </p>
<p>If you ask me whether China will replace USA? No. Not now, and probably can;t in the next 10 years. As an immigrant, I read New York Times and Chinese newspaper every morning. I know the Chinese very well. I lived with several Chinese Columbia Phd last semesters. They knew so much better than most of the “economists” here. One of them was education economy major, one was International affairs, and the other one was an EE and now a Finicnal engineering PhD.</p>
<p>The housing mortgage is crazy. The price is so high that only 0.5% people were able to afford them. If you ever want to buy a small apartment, it will take an individual 60 years to fulfill the debt. By the time you die you are still not the owner of the apartment. I am talking about a small one. One bed room, one bathroom, one small living room, and one small kitchen. But who will live there for 60 years? In 30 years that building may sold to another estate company. The bank is always making money, because you have to pay back the debt anyway!</p>
<p>The Chinese is suffering now. The past 6 months workers went on strikes to coerce companies like Toyota, FoxConn (the largest electrical components manufacturing company today, a contractor of Apple) to raise the wages. </p>
<p>The strikes continue to go on occasionally. I am dare to say this will happen in cheap labor countries…</p>
<p>I hate politic game. Just face it. Your personal argument is in the wrong context. This is not 1980.</p>
<p>Moreover, face the fact that not just engineers. All fields are affected. Like everyone is going to college, and every year like 100,000 people graduate from college. This not a bad problem. Even when the economy is good, the old stragery will not work because this is not the beginning of 1990s, or 2000.</p>
<p>Why do you hate engineering so much Homer? Give it a rest. Be what you want to be, let everyone else be what they want to be and we will all deal with the results of our decisions.</p>
<p>I just want people to know the truth about the job. And the truth is that every single day corporate prostitutes like the US Chamber of Commerce are working to destroy every profession they can so that they can make bigger profits. When many people can’t find jobs, what do they want? Accordng to their website “the continuity and expansion of H-1B, L-1, and EB visas for professionals and highly valued workers. The Chamber represents numerous companies and organizations that need to bring highly skilled workers into the United States each year, and they need to be able to count on having enough talent to remain competitive.” And Congress has no problem doing what they want. </p>
<p>Good luck in your careers! Whatever you do, do not join ANY professional organizations as they do not care about their employees, only corporate profits.</p>
<p>I think what Homer28 is trying to say is that many future engineers, such as myself, hold several misconceptions about the profession. Perhaps we believe we will be doing interesting work 24/7, command high salaries, possess job security, etc. but it seems reality is a bit “messier” than what we believe it is.</p>
<p>Not every engineer will obtain a job exactly or similar to Cosmicfish’s and not every engineer will land a horrible, lame, crummy job; I’d say the majority will fall between those extremes. The former probably applies to most professions out there. It’s up to the individual to adapt to changing conditions in order to maximize survival; Darwin was no fool.</p>
<p>Personally, I plan for worst case scenarios and hope for the best. In the very remote event of civilization collapse, I’d rather have scientific/engineering knowledge than legal or financial knowledge.</p>
<p>This guy just ignored my history talk. Come on. My point is not perfect.</p>
<p>He’s either a tea party member, hating people with H1B visa, or just someone who can’t stand in a discussion longer than two days.</p>
<p>And professional organizations. Only engineers? Lawyers are professional. Electricians are professional. Teachers are professional, and I have hearing these professional unions are complaining about salary and long working hours.</p>
<p>However, I hate unions. Those leaders in NYC government unions just sit in the office and make twice as much as a worker. I love this.</p>
<p>Open your mind… :(</p>
<p>If you don’t want to join a corporate, then be a freelancer yourself.</p>
<p>Ha, Homer, my life as an engineer has been crummy, too. Home office in a beautiful rural community in Maine. Cabin in the mountains. Two sailboats. Fun projects. Get to work everyday with my husband. And we graduated in 1986, when the economy SUCKED! Yes, we were laid off a few times, but we started our own firm and have been very successful. We’d do it all over again, in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>A lot of success has to do with your attitude. If you want to be Debbie Downer, that’s fine, but you won’t do nearly as well as someone with a more positive attitude.</p>
<p>Homer - I graduated in 2006, and while the economy has reduced hiring, it certainly hasn’t stymied it. We hired around 80 new engineers last year, instead of the 100 my year.</p>
<p>Qwerty - that was after 4 years of work, although I think that is pretty close to what my company is offering new employees with masters degrees right now.</p>
<p>
How do these “people with experience, but not too much experience” get this experience if there aren’t many entry level jobs for them to start off with?</p>
<p>
Unions exist to protect their members (essentially) from unfair employers and poor working conditions. It’d be naive to think that no union leader is corrupt, but the principles behind the concept of a union is a good one and helps the majority of the people. So jwxie, do you hate unions altogether, or just the few bad apples? And are we discussing this in the context of engineering? In the overwhelming majority of cases, engineers aren’t unionized.</p>
<p>
I should be clear: I dislike those fat-paid “elected union leaders” :)</p>
<p>[Union</a> chiefs get city salaries even though they work full-time for members - NYPOST.com](<a href=“http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/big_dippers_city_union_chiefs_pull_zWWTpXcIg9sXPjdNsDEK2I]Union”>Big dippers: City union chiefs pull 2 salaries)</p>
<p>This is not right, and doesn’t make sense at all.</p>
<p>I was referring to his “professional organizations”. Engineering unions exist for a long time, but the nature of “engineering” has changed, so many of them went away. Some orporates may have their own unions, of course.</p>
<p>I can’t fault them for that; if there’s someone to blame, it’s the City lawyers for agreeing to such a provision in the contract. If you’re negotiating something, you ask for the most that you can get the opposition. There’s nothing wrong with that.</p>
<p>ok, I was going to leave, but I just had to respond to the comments below:</p>
<p>“He’s either a tea party member, hating people with H1B visa, or just someone who can’t stand in a discussion longer than two days.”</p>
<p>No, no, no. I am not a tea party member. I hate those people. But yes, I do dislike those with H1B visas who take jobs away. I don’t hate them, but I do hate the companies that LIE to the American people about a shortage of engineers so that they can justify increasing the visa cap. </p>
<hr>
<p>“And professional organizations. Only engineers? Lawyers are professional. Electricians are professional. Teachers are professional, and I have hearing these professional unions are complaining about salary and long working hours.”</p>
<hr>
<p>A professional organization is NOT the same thing as a labor union. There are major differences between the two.</p>
<p>good article related to some of the talk on this thread. Andy Grove, the heart and soul of the Intel chip company, suggests that America has taken its eye off the ball and is not really making things anymore, and is allowing other countries to do this and therefore get the experience and ‘know-how’. We need to turn this ship back.</p>
<p>[Andy</a> Grove: How America Can Create Jobs - BusinessWeek](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>
<p>jwxie, good rundown on the historical context. I aggree that there were definitely economic consequences when Gorby followed Reagan’s admonition to ‘tear down that wall’ in 1988/89. The world changed. I lost my programming job to Indians in violation of the H-1b visa policy. But there is no oversight nor enforcement in that area; hey, it’s 2010, it is a different world. Thing is - those other countries engage in protectionist policies.</p>
<p>I feel enginneering is probably still a good course to follow and am suggesting my son look seriously at this (he is a sr in hs now). But, shoot, I just saw another early 50 something guy in the grocery store <em>during the middle of the day</em> and he said that he , too , was downsized. But he had an engineering degree from ND. He actually turned into management and when the manfuacturing went south, so did he - wasn’t an outsource.</p>
<p>Finally, i like homer’s presence on this thread. One will better find the truth when there is a naysayer. “The devil’s advocate” as the Vatican has in place to adjudicate saints.</p>
<p>If my son chooses engineering and we spend every penny supporting this decision, it is best to know as much as possible.</p>