Why Google Doesn't Care About Hiring Top School Graduates

Parents Forum
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<p>What I don’t understand is this attitude. When kids can’t write they come up with programs to improve their writing skills but when kids can’t add people resign and claim the kid doesn’t have appropriate aptitude to improve and we should let them be. Isn’t adding a basic skill in the modern society just as much as writing is? How many kids major in history for love of it than by the default of nothing better to major? </p>

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<p>They are dwindling as Amazons and Alibabas are taking it over. In the end only boutique shops may survive. How many can they hire? </p>

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<p>Iglooo- what programs are addressing kids inability to write? I see little evidence of their success at either the HS or college level. And spellcheck/autocorrect have only made it worse- kids don’t even bother with proper syntax anymore.</p>

<p>I don’t think an inability to add (which will hamper someone’s skill throughout their life) is the same as struggling in calculus. How you got that off my post confounds me. Exactly where did I suggest that we don’t provide interventions for a kid who doesn’t have 7th grade math skills?</p>

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<p>Kids write journals starting in the first garde or earlier. At my kid’s school, they “published” books in the first grade, wrote a “research” paper in the second, a year-long journal on a theme subject in the third, etc. All of that made interesting by drawing illustrations and role playing, making puppets, dioramas, pertaining to the story.</p>

<p>We don’t start kids on “math” subject early or provide consistency to move onto the next level. We don’t introduce math concepts before putting them in math forms. They count a few marbles before jumping to the multiplication table. We don’t train teachers properly to employ successful methods of teaching math to kids. They just get by. By the time you intervene to bring up struggling kids, we have lost out. </p>

<p>We have a very high standard to write well and yet quite tolerant with a 12th grader struggling with calculus that is taught in 5th garde in some other countries. </p>

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<p>My company has a relatively simple editing/composition test we give to candidates for communications related roles (investor relations, marketing, employee communications, etc.) and you won’t believe the number of college grads and even people with Master’s degrees who can’t pass. Between the run-on sentences, inability to recognize a problem with tenses, misuse of homonyms, it’s a challenge to hire for these roles. This is not a hard core editing test you’d give to someone at a media company for an actual role as an editor- just a plain vanilla “Can you write a three paragraph press release without sounding like an 8 year old”.</p>

<p>My experience does not jive with yours. My kids had excellent math instruction- much better than my own during the bizarre “new math” experiment of the 1960’s. I had remedial math in grad school as a prerequisite before enrolling in a quantitatively oriented MBA-- and I wished I’d had that kind of intervention in middle school. My kids wouldn’t need such intervention- their math instruction in the 1990’s and 2000’s was comprehensive and consistent.</p>

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<p>Oh, I don’t doubt that. But I would say if you administer an equivalent test on math, the result will be depressing. I am quite sure my kid’s experience at her school regarding math was far above the average lacking it may be in my view. My kid went to a selective private school with more emphasis on math and science than an average prep school. About 20% of their graduates go to Ivies. </p>

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<p>Our math test has more predictable results. We are one of the (hated on CC) companies which asks for SAT scores of our candidates. I have rarely seen someone with top percentile SAT math scores who doesn’t do well on our quant test even though it is somewhat more difficult than the SAT. The correlation seems very clear- if you did well at age 17 on the math SAT you are likely to do well on our math screener. The correlation on both the verbal and writing SAT’s is much weaker. You can be a high scoring SAT test taker (verbal and writing) at age 17 and not be able to write a grammatical, declarative topic sentence or write a three paragraph summary of a long and detailed report.</p>

<p>I know parents here get all testy about companies which ask for SAT scores- “I’m 50 and no company has ever asked me”-- ok, got it. “my kid is brilliant but a bad test taker and it’s not fair that he’ll get screened out of his desired career”-- ok, well there are plenty of companies in your kids desired industry that likely don’t ask for SAT’s.</p>

<p>I still think learning to write well is an important skill to master and demonstrate in college.</p>

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<p>Is a job applicant disqualified if s/he never took the SAT?</p>

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<p>Not disqualified- we hire all over the world and obviously, thousands of applicants haven’t taken the SAT. But MOST (not all) US applicants have taken either SAT or ACT. </p>

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<p>@Igloo. </p>

<p>I think there’s some real misunderstanding about the synergy between ecommerce and retail. Except, Amazon has begun to open brick and mortar stores. Apple is fully committed to brick and mortar stores.</p>

<p><a href=“http://siliconangle.com/blog/2013/02/22/why-bricks-and-mortars-will-live-forever/”>http://siliconangle.com/blog/2013/02/22/why-bricks-and-mortars-will-live-forever/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>There’s a wide variety of careers in retail. I know most people think: sales associate. Full stop.</p>

<p>The industry is huge. Marketing, design, product design, advertising, buying… logistics… it’s a pretty endless list.</p>

<p>In the end, computer skills are really helpful in this industry as well, but pure floor room sales experience is a massive plus. In case you don’t understand how important that face to face impact is, look at the top retail brands and the top ecommerce brands. Most have bricks and mortar for a reason.</p>

<p><a href=“http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/online_brands_show_their_stuff_offline”>http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/online_brands_show_their_stuff_offline&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>(Not to derail the conversation, just to point out that prejudices aside, there is a lot of career opportunity in retail, and most of retail now includes ecommerce, as well)</p>

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<p>@blossom‌, I normally agree with you as your perspective on business seems fairly similar to mine and my post on major macro trends was a bit brief given what I was writing about. I found a nice article by a hedge fund economist named Samuel Rines on the contestability of jobs that I find very useful: <a href=“The Biggest Threat to U.S. Jobs: The "Contestability" Nightmare”>https://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/today/post/article/20141030145107-57656192-the-biggest-threat-to-u-s-jobs-the-contestability-nightmare&lt;/a&gt;. But the macro picture is as you say, not everything, but it is a lot more important than a number of posters here seem to think.</p>

<p>My post was a response to a number of the posters on this site who appear to be driving by largely looking in the rearview mirror when there is a huge boulder in the middle of the road. I am a huge fan of learning how to think and not at all a fan of getting an undergraduate business degree as a general rule, but I think many parents seem to believe (or want to believe) that the global economy is where we were ten or twenty years ago, which unfortunately will not prevent them from hitting the boulder. Strategically thoughtful action is needed. Your post also seems to give a bit too much weight to the rear view.</p>

<p>A number of folks ask me to give career advice – I have my own way of thinking about career trajectories that people find useful and I’ve been asked to give a TED talk and encouraged to write a book on the subject (unfortunately I haven’t had time for either) but did give such a talk at a prestigious business school and a couple of elite undergraduate schools. One thing I normally tell folks thinking about career trajectories to think about the big demographic, economic, technological, sociological waves that are coming and that it is vastly better to pick a good wave. Picking a bad wave – like trying to become a teacher during the baby bust as a couple of friends did – is both frustrating and for many, psychologically debilitating. One important wave is technological. Technology is not the only wave, however. This weekend, I was asked by a college student who is not at all mathy but is good at languages and I said, one wave that is not played out by any means is conflict between the West and the Arab World and I encouraged her – an American Jew who is fluent in Hebrew – to become equally fluent in Arabic. There will be continued employment for those interested in the Middle East and fluent in Arabic. That is a demonstrable skill and a contestable job. Climate change is another wave that is still early. In health care, all developed countries have aging populations, expensive by life-lengthening new technologies, and the lack of political will to pay for cost increases continuing to grow faster than the rate of inflation. Required changes in health care provision due to these trends is another big wave. There will be massive growth in demand for physician assistants and nurse practitioners to deal with cost reduction due to these trends (substituting NPs and PAs and other doc substitutes for docs whenever possible). Electricians, plumbers, and data scientists also possess demonstrable skills and will have contestable jobs. Engineers have cobweb cycles as you recognize and data scientists may also be affect by the H1-B restrictions (though the area is probably new enough that the effect will be muted), but being at the top of the game will provide great rewards. Electricians and plumbers are also buffeted by economic cycles. High-end salespeople (the folks who sell the enterprise software or big machines or specialty chemicals) will continue to be in demand. All these will require some technical skill. And real estate development is always going to be contestable. </p>

<p>I was recently asked by two sets of parents to talk to their kids who are looking for jobs in neuroscience after doing very well as undergrads and working in labs at their universities and other universities. Guess what, there are 20 kids just like them from each school and you have to give the hiring person some reason to pick you. Writing skill, maybe, but I suspect that there will be a lot of good writers in the neuroscience area as this is the one STEM area that has seen a big influx of females (who, in my stereotypical view are likely to be better writers than male neuroscience kids, though perhaps you can disabuse me of this notion). Technical skills – can you write software to connect the machine to the computer or modify a piece of software – would likely be a lot more distinguishing. So, frankly, would be parental contacts that get the kid the interview.</p>

<p>@Pizzagirl‌, as many middle class jobs go away, there will be more people looking for retail jobs and these will be more competitive and wages will probably be driven down. There are management positions in retail and some people will get them. My perception is that the working conditions in retail – even management – are not that great until you rise quite a ways. On the fashion side of the business, retail and fashion companies seem to be pretty exploitative with young job candidates, often female, who have always wanted to work in fashion. Lots of unpaid internships or early poorly paid jobs. But, on the fashion side, the working conditions seem to get better sooner than on the retail side. I could be wrong about this.</p>

<p>@blossom‌, my biggest concern with respect to your list of demonstrable skills (“strong communicators. Ability to synthesize lots of information into easily digestible bites. Ability to use charts and graphics to demonstrate a complicated concept. Ability to drive consensus”) is that in the current environment with many applicants for fewer jobs is not that they are not valuable but that they won’t come up until people get in the door – those applicants may not get past the resume screener. If that is the selling proposition, the job candidates will need a lot of advice on how to make these prominent early on – and I suspect many will not have developed those skills sufficiently yet to be selling propositions to companies that want to see immediate assistance from new hires. You are much closer to the hiring world than I – can college seniors demonstrate those skills sufficiently to get into the pool being interviewed?</p>

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<p>I just want to mention that dd has HS classmates working at Google who majored in Sociology and Art History. T.hat’s just 2 in her small hs class of 45.</p>

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<p>The goal is to get a good job with an opportunity to advance and do interesting work in differing areas. It seriously doesn’t matter if its’ in retail, ecommerce, local government or Wegmans, google or target or FedEx, or BOFA. In the end, none of us, not even the purported experts see the future of business and the economy in the US. The best thing is to be teachable, to be competent and to continue to educate and train yourself. Any other proclamations about the future of the US economy is prognosticating in the dark. </p>

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<p>“The goal is to get a good job with an opportunity to advance and do interesting work in differing areas. It seriously doesn’t matter if its’ in retail, ecommerce, local government or Wegmans, google or target or FedEx, or BOFA.”</p>

<p>Bingo. Satisfying, intellectually challenging work with growth potential and collegial colleagues can be found at any of these places. </p>

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<p>@shawbridge: I think you hit the nail on the head.

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<p>Speaks Arabic, high working knowledge of Matlab, proficient in XYZ statistical analysis system etc. will get one past the first level and hopefully in front of a human.</p>

<p>DS is looking for ME summer internships, he is currently a Sophomore. He was told to not use the narrative on his resume but to instead list specific classes, applications, systems and to list what he has actually done. The advise leads us to believe it is better to list 'built a model train system, designed a jacket with lighting system (yes he did) etc. than it is to say 'able to work in a fast paced multidimensional environment, proven communicator etc. </p>

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<p>I don’t dispute it. The question is if your quant test is as sophisticated as your writing test. We do know overseas test takers of math sat do better. Far better. Their scores go through the roof. Tech companies scramble to secure enough H1B visas to bring them here and half of math and science departments at named graduate schools are filled with foreign students.</p>

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<p>We know technical skills don’t drop from the sky. Being familiar with math and science will prepare them to absorb much needed technical skills.</p>

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<p>Actually, @Igloo. There is plenty of evidence that the real reason the tech companies are desperate for the H1Bs is because they can pay less. Sorry. </p>

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<p>@poetgrl‌, I concur that the ability to continue to learn is a critically important skill/trait. Probably the most important given that the world will continue to change. I personally have had, for the bulk of my career, jobs in two areas that didn’t exist when I was in college. So having the flexibility and skills to create the jobs has been very important. I suspect you are right about the H1B push as well.</p>

<p>I further agree that no one knows the future with certainty. But, not knowing the future with certainty is equivalent not to knowing nothing, which is how I read “Any other proclamations about the future of the US economy is prognosticating in the dark.” Do I misunderstand you? There are major long-term trends that are not new and will continue: Conflict between Islam and the West, the continuing impact of information and communication technology on the nature of work, climate change, changes in the nature, need and willingness to pay for health care, the increasing reliance on big data by companies and governments (for better and for worse), the world’s continuing need for energy and water, etc. Not taking those into account at some level seems myopic. </p>

<p>My advice would be to invest in building in human capital in areas that are promising (the waves that are rising). As an example, I recently advised an extremely impressive business school student (ticked every box of success as an undergrad, in management consulting, as a very young but very senior governmental official and now a business school student at a top-ranked school) who was interested in public service generally in the long run but who has experience/interest in international relations/national security and wants to get some useful private sector experience. Rather than go back into management consulting, I suggested that he consider two ideas: 1) get a job as the assistant to the CEO or the head of a major group of one of the international oil companies (where his past governmental experience will help); or 2) work for a firm that is seeking to help local and state governments to outsource key operations to help governments to cut costs (where his management consulting background might help). Both are rising waves (even if oil prices are depressed today, for technological and geopolitical reasons). I think the former struck home with him.</p>

<p>@Pizzagirl‌, my concern would be that some of those places might be in long-term structural decline, in the same way that Amazon disintermediated bookstores. Local bookstores are wonderful places, but working there or running a chain of them could be frustrating or depressing. Bricks and mortar retail generally is suffering (look at Radio Shack). Print journalism is another. I think doctors will tell you that their job satisfaction is a lot lower now than it was 20 years ago. Rather than assuming that any and all opportunities offer the potential for “intellectually challenging work with growth potential and collegial colleagues,” I’d do a bit of aiming as the prospect of finding growth potential and collegial colleagues will likely be a lot lower in an industry that is undergoing disruptive competitive pressures.</p>

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<p>I heard that. I doubt that’s the whole story. Do grad schools fill their math science seats with foreign student because they get to pay them less? Or go to Thiel’s start-up program, what is it called 20 under 20 something? Was Thiel trying to save money? People like to say it and I am sure that’s partially true. But we are lagging behind in math and science with no plans to catch with the rest of the world while the ecnomy is getting more and more dependent on technology. </p>

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<p>90% of that is about technology/science.</p>

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<p>@shawbridge. What I mean is really that no matter who you are, you need to know computers and tech, no matter what you do, but you had better know marketing and sales (the world is run by sales people), numbers, money and how to communicate a coherent thought.</p>

<p>I actually cannot believe we require writing at such a high level for an undergrad degree, but we don’t require computer literacy. Given that you can write, now, by speaking into a computer, it would seem that understanding tech should be considered equally as important as composition. (But that’s just me.)</p>

<p>All I’m really saying is that I encourage all kids to get jobs in high school, to work in college, to get internships and to leave school with a firm understanding of the language and the computers they are holding in their laps. Other than that, other than the trade schools like engineering, etc… I’m not sure what matters more than learning how to learn.</p>

<p>I don’t know one person our age who is doing something they learned in college, except docs and lawyers, and even the docs are doing what they learned AFTER they graduated since the pace of change is rapid.</p>

<p>Learn to learn, learn to show up, and go in the direction of your strengths. I think the one thing left out of these conversations is one of the things really lacking in our educations these days: creativity. The more creative you are, the more indispensable you become. Even in business, maybe especially. YMMV</p>