“@bestmom, thank you for having the courage to share this on the board.”
It’s astounding that it requires courage to post actual cases from my dd’s high school. No one wants the aggravation of dealing with the PC police. It’s so bad that there’s a whole thread from a mom appealing to posters to go easy on kids who come here to vent their disappointments. Why should she have to ask for compassion from posters here? Isn’t it obvious that we should all have compassion for 17 yo’s who are facing the biggest disappointments of their lives? Instead they are called “entitled”, “brats”, “how dare you think x college is beneath you”, etc. and told of all the “mistakes” they made, in extremely judgmental tones by ADULTS. Same things are told to parents who post about disappointments. You’d think the biggest sin a parent can make is to encourage their kids to study hard so that he can get into a good courage! Ridiculous.
This blog is full of good info, which is why I come here as my oldest dd is a senior. It’s a shame that it could not also be a place for kids (and parents) to get support when they are facing, what for many, are huge disappointments.
@theoloniusmonk I think you missed the point of the essay example; it wasn’t about wealth, it was about the contrast between a trite, generic essay and one that was genuinely personal and compelling and individual. I could have used a different example, like How Sports Taught Me the Value of Teamwork.
And I never said or even implied that “ivies have mainly kids with 1200 or 1300 floating around the campus and getting a lot of FA,” or that they don’t like kids with 1600s. The point is that once a student meets a certain threshold, there aren’t bigger prizes for higher scores. The prizes (admissions) go to the kids who bring something else, in addition to test scores and APs, that makes them stand out. That could be outstanding talent in some area (art, writing, music, sports), evidence of remarkable leadership or initiative (not just president of the French Club), significant research experience, some form of diversity that the school is looking for, a compelling back story, or a just a parent with a very large bank account.
Yes the average SAT at Ivies is 1500 — which means there’s a significant number of kids there with lower scores, who are obviously bringing something else to the table that the school wants. And frankly that’s true even with scores above 1500 — there are kids with perfect scores rejected by top schools all the time, because they didn’t have that extra something that made adcoms think “we have to have this kid!” Students who get angry and resentful because someone with lower test scores, or fewer APS or ECs, got into a school that rejected them, are not seeing the bigger picture.
“Students who get angry and resentful because someone with lower test scores, or fewer APS or ECs, got into a school that rejected them, are not seeing the bigger picture.”
And the parents who come hear and complain about it and about others they deem “lesser” who received acceptances aren’t seeing the big picture either and are doing a disservice to their child blaming their lack of a slim chance acceptance on other applicants. Where’s the pragmatism and awareness? That’s not PC policing. If you thought those spots for legacies, athletes, first gen, URM, etc. were ever going to go to your child, you were ill informed from the start. Posts on this and similar threads remind me how blind some people are about their own children. Sure, be proud of your kid, encourage them to do their best - because success is its own reward - but to expect that to equate to acceptances at the most selective schools with the odds being what they are is misplaced. Part of a parent’s job is to guide their child in a realistic way and help them figure that out and to let them know that there are many wonderful school across the selectivity spectrum where they will be both happy and successful. If you’ve given your kids the impression that only a score of schools are acceptable as a reward for their academic success, shame on you.
The level of whining and blaming this cycle is not only sad, it’s maddening.
More transparency, and frankly some honesty, by college admissions officers would do a lot to decrease the disappointment expressed here. Many kids felt, perhaps naively, they were betrayed-they played by the rules, followed their counselors advice, believed the admissions marketing materials- and it did not yield expected results. Of course they are bitter. Colleges are very rarely candid about the process, which would have kept those expectations in check.
Getting into college sometimes feels like buying a car: They will always know more than you do about their numbers, their goal, and the sticker price will likely vary widely. While some schools are pretty transparent with their process, many will not be, so asking them to do so is going to add to frustration on the part of the applicant. That said, There is often much more on a college’s website about what is important to any particular school than some applicants may realize. The students who think their grades, test scores, and list of ECs is going to make them stand out above other applicants with a similar pedigree doesn’t understand the process. The schools know you want them; the goal is to make them want you.
A little dose of reality here on cc for students do learn to deal with disappointment, lick their wounds and move on is, IMO, healthier than the preaching by a few thread police that the students should be coddled and shielded from the realities of reviewing, grieving and accepting the process. Most, understandably, don’t like the process, but it is what it is.
I’ve seen comments on this forum from parents/students lambasting college information sessions where very selective schools DO give realistic feedback on the odds of admission. Posters will remark that the schools were unwelcoming, thought they were special, pompous, and whatnot. I’m sure it’s part of human nature, but folks tend to filter out the negatives as not applying to them and only focus on what they want to hear. Rose colored glasses.
Maybe it’s a shortcoming in our educational system - in addition to some basic statistics lessons, the past few years have made me more aware that critical thinking skills need more emphasis. Whether it is in the political arena, college admissions, investing, or just everyday consumer advertising, sharpened critical thinking would come in handy.
I do think many focus too much on stats alone because they are so easy to compare thus giving those parts of the application too much weight while neglecting the importance of less tangible, less measurable components.
@mwdad2018 thanks for sharing your thread. It is an eye opener. I hope you do not mind if I ask other posters input.
I have ave few question to ask from the rest of the board as I am speculating nwdad2018 kid is a white or Asian kid. I am also speculating that parent needed funding that is why applied SCEA than ED.
So if the kid was a white or ORM girl interested in STEM (non biloology) was there better chance as Yale need more mathy girls?
If parents were full pay or did not need much need based aid, then were they better off applying to ED schools like other ivies.
Have parent focussed on pacakging a student as mentioned on many thread, that would have made a difference.
If they were not middle class but poor parent who needed almost full aid, would have made a differnce as Yale would have them on diveristy quota.
^^I didn’t think you could discuss race as in “ORM” and “white” anywhere but the race thread. I have had my hands slapped for this and given warnings. Why is everyone else getting away with it?
@infinityprep1234 Yale doesn’t offer ED, SCEA is the only choice if you want to apply to Yale early and they offer excellent financial aid… So a lot of your speculation could be based on some false assumptions from the get go.
@mwdad2018 has a very smart, talented child. Clearly qualified to be successful at probably any school in the world if admitted. Sometimes it comes down to not enough spots available. Or the AO not liking something about the application that might seem trivial to someone not in Admissions. Or just (as the wonderfully thoughtful @Lindagaf says) not realizing how many “average excellent” applicants there are running around applying to schools which have relatively few spaces.
My best advice for those families who are seeking admission to the most selective schools in the nation WHERE 95% OF APPLICANTS ARE REJECTED is to help your child figure out what they are bringing to the table that none one else can bring. GPA and test scores can be brought to the table by literally tens of thousands of students. There are 35k valedictorians graduating each year. There are 35k (at least) captain of the each school sports team. There are 1st chair violinists at every school that has an orchestra. And overlap isn’t as uncommon as many parents think. Students who are smart and talented are often multi-talented (not just academic). They can also be good looking. Smart, talented and good looking don’t always get into Yale (or equivalent). I do think more parents need to take a look in the mirror and honestly reflect on their own critical thinking skills when it comes to helping their children navigate college applications. If you come out of a campus visit where you are told by Admissions that 95% of applicants get rejected and you thought your child had a 50/50 shot - your math skills and critical reasoning were on the fritz during that visit and continued to not work afterwards.
Take a step back and realize that the unique part of your child is not their outward accomplishments, it is whatever makes them them…and not anyone else. Help your child use their college applications to explain why they feel each college would be a good fit for them and what they would be bringing to the college (that isn’t great test scores or the desire to get a high paying/prestigious job). It can be a lot harder to think about the application in terms of what is special about you that can’t be easily quantified and then to show not tell…but I think that has a better shot of catching the attention of AOs more than “I worked so hard to get practically perfect grades and scores - what else could you want from an applicant???” It also has the added benefit of making the student figure out why (besides prestige and/or bragging rights) they want the specific school.
The difference is that car dealers are not nonprofit entities primarily marketed to minors, or those close to it. So I have far greater acceptance of their tactics than the ones used by colleges.Dolemite’s numbers are correct at Princeton-Yes, there is some overlap in the hooked groups, but hooked applicants do take up more than half the class. So the admission rate really isn’t 6%, it is much, much less, for those unhooked. Princeton doesn’t publicize this. The only transparency is the gender data, due to the common data set. At least there, female applicants to Vassar or William and Mary, for example, can more accurately assess their admission chances ( or likewise males to CalTech) than the overall admit rate, which is deceptive
“So if the kid was a white or ORM girl interested in STEM (non biloology) was there better chance as Yale need more mathy girls?”
Better compared to what? I think that the safest course is to assume that an average excellent candidate in SCEA and RD without a major hook (preferably several) stands almost no chance.
“If parents were full pay or did not need much need based aid, then were they better off applying to ED schools like other ivies.”
A definite YES.
“Have parent focussed on pacakging a student as mentioned on many thread, that would have made a difference.”
Depends on the level of the schools. At the very tippy-tops, eh. I’m not sure it matters that much.
“If they were not middle class but poor parent who needed almost full aid, would have made a differnce as Yale would have them on diveristy quota.”
Life experiences would be so different, it’s hard to compare. If you grow up poor (speaking as someone who’s parents were lower-middle-class at best), there would be quite a few more pressing concerns in life than getting in to Yale.
if the kid was a white or ORM girl interested in STEM (non biloology) was there better chance as Yale need more mathy girls?
Anecdotal data as well as available statistics from some schools does suggest that engineering/computer science admissions to top schools do favor girls. Now, I do not know about Maths or Physics majors. College of art and science admissions might be putting all science majors in a big bin, and there may not be an advantage to being a girl.
If parents were full pay or did not need much need based aid, then were they better off applying to ED schools like other ivies.
I think so … schools like Columbia, Duke, UPenn, NU, Cornell, Dartmouth and Brown have much higher rate (between 18 and 26%) rate for ED as compared to 4-8% for RD. Moreover, I would argue that boost for a non-hooked candidate are even higher. Having followed the threads for multiple years now, I will say that with an exception of Wharton ED, chances of a high stat kid (3.9+ unweighted GPA, 34+ ACT, top 1-2% of the class, good subject test or AP scores) with at least somewhat reasonable ECs are quite good at these schools.
Once you take athletes and legacies out of ED numbers, I’d question how much better they really are at some elite schools. Better I’d say but not as great as many assume.
“More transparency, and frankly some honesty, by college admissions officers would do a lot to decrease the disappointment expressed here. Many kids felt, perhaps naively, they were betrayed-they played by the rules, followed their counselors advice, believed the admissions marketing materials- and it did not yield expected results. Of course they are bitter. Colleges are very rarely candid about the process, which would have kept those expectations in check.”
“The difference is that car dealers are not nonprofit entities primarily marketed to minors, or those close to it.”
@YoungOne4 SCEA is Single Choice Early Action. Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford have it. You can apply there Early Action but you can’t apply to any other Private school Early Action.
Like all Early Action - it’s non-binding if accepted.