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<p>I personally know two recent computer science grads that started out in excess of $100K (New York and San Francisco). Petroleum grads are currently doing even better.</p>
<p>But I too am in the camp that says that debt should be minimized.</p>
<p>I saw an article posted here on another forum that said that about one-third of engineering graduates from 2012 don’t have jobs in their field. That’s better than one-half of all graduates from 2012 though. I’ve had conversations with a co-worker with a son graduating with an engineering degree from an Ivy and a good GPA and he’s telling me that it’s tough; both for his son and his son’s friends. Many are waiting out the job market in graduate school. I don’t know if their programs are funded or not but my friends’ son was accepted and there was no funding mentioned.</p>
<p>The kids getting high-paying jobs in Boston, San Francisco and New York City have some pretty big living expenses in those cities including pesky little things like income taxes. We have one local company offering $30K for new CS grads. I’m pretty sure that they get what they’re paying for.</p>
<p>Even accountants do pretty well in Boston. I know a kid that graduated from a local school and he works in Boston at a big company and makes good coin - he commutes from New Hampshire - I think that he lives with his parents. I guess he has low living expenses along with a pain of a commute.</p>
<p>BTW - that voices thing was an excellent link. You get the feeling that some of those people had self-inflicted wounds but the large disparity in knowledge and living experience between lenders and borrowers does seem to be a big problem. I do believe that the overall statistics are not bad on student loans (the percentages are low on huge loans) but there are big numbers of people that have severe loan problems.</p>
<p>The GT data on engineering salaries, look VERY closely AT the data. A little over half have actually GOTTEN jobs. The kids who do not have jobs at graduation don’t even respond to those surveys. It is not mandatory. Remember as in everything their are the 3.8 + GPA engineers who will get hired easily and those who do not have a 3.8 who are on the underemployed/unemployed list. Since one can not predict with certainty the high GPA as a freshman, it is best to limit all debt to the lowest level possible. Best scenario is zero debt. </p>
<p>We know plenty recently graduated engineers, all disciplines, who are unemployed right now. All have over 3.2 GPAs, had internships, worked on published research, the best outcomes came for the kids who did co-ops.</p>
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<p>Let’s be clear–$100K in NY or SF is not the same as in Toledo or Birmingham or Grand Rapids. The cost of living is SO much higher that the net result is the same as a “regular” starting salary in other cities.</p>
<p>It’s pretty hard to get these jobs though. You have to be way above average. Just graduating isn’t going to do it. You have to be able to demonstrate capabilities.
ClassicRockerDad is offline </p>
<p>By definition half of the grads are average or below. This seems inconsistent with the opinions of many on this board that engineers and computer scientists have no problem getting a great paying job right out of college. When I read the job placement reports from universities, they often say 90+ percent of our graduates are employed or in graduate school 6 months after graduation. Then they go on to say starting salaries for engineers are 60k. What they don’t specify is what percentage of recent grads are employed as engineers and what percent are in grad school because they couldn’t find a job in their field. As ClassicRockerDad states it’s hard to get these jobs.</p>
<p>Our S does have a job, but lives in VA, near DC, which is not a low cost area either. He also has to fly over 150K miles/year as part of his job, which can get old. He does feel fortunate to have a good job, but knows MANY, MANY others who have not been able to get a job in their field, including his former college room mate and many other engineering peers. Some are in grad school (often with little or no funding), some are waiting in other fields with whatever they can get. We were speaking with the parents of an Ivy engineering SR whose S has no job offers at the moment and graduation is right around the corner. The parent was not happy–I’m sure the student isn’t either, nor are his friends who also are hoping for any offers.</p>
<p>According to this recent story in CNN Money, the top starting salary for engineering is for Petroleum Engineers, average starting salary $93,500
<a href=“http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/25/news/economy/engineering-best-paid-jobs/index.html[/url]”>http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/25/news/economy/engineering-best-paid-jobs/index.html</a></p>
<p>The story doesn’t say how many of the many PEs actually get a job in the field or more importantly will in 4+ years when the new engineering students hope to graduate and find jobs. The same applies to the other engineering and other fields, including late, nursing and more. It doesn’t make good copy to make folks sad, but people need to have a more realistic idea of what the economy is like now and in the future.</p>
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<p>This is certainly true, and why I explicitly mentioned the cities. On the other hand, many young people are interested in living in NYC/SF, even if it costs a larger portion of their income to do so.</p>
<p>This is a good tool for most parents and students to have: </p>
<p>[Student</a> loan repayment calculator](<a href=“Mapping Your Future: Page not found”>Mapping Your Future: Page not found)</p>
<p>The thread seems to be wandering off topic, although there have been some great responses. I would emphasize that college debt is a big deal because:</p>
<ol>
<li> College debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy - you owe it until you die.</li>
<li> Some universities have a 50% or lower graduation rate - you still owe the loans even if you do not graduate</li>
<li> Some majors have poor job placement and low starting salaries - you still owe the loans even if you do not get a job</li>
<li> Many students would benefit from graduate school, or even study abroad/summer sessions/curriculum enhancement while an undergraduate. Having loans limits or even eliminates the ability to explore extras</li>
<li> Taking loans makes a student “feel richer” and tempted to spend money on non-essential luxuries</li>
</ol>
<p>I will add #6. High debt can impact ability to get security clearances for some jobs (gov and non gov).</p>
<p>I would like to add a different perspective. I consider debt worthwhile for 3 things, a mortgage, a vehicle, and college(or grad school). Therefore, despite all the excellent advice above, esp on college loans not being dischargeable and being aware of your possible salary when you graduate, I think it is fine to take out some loans for college if needed and college is a good place to spend some money. What you want to be careful of is not overindebting yourself. I saw a link above to college loan payoffs. Using one of those would be wise so you see the real costs of getting the education. If you plan to go to grad school, you want to minimize your undergrad debts and even if you only plan to get an undergrad degree, use some wisdom in balancing less expensive v more expensive alternatives.</p>
<p>It is true that employers–mine, H’s and S’s have run credit checks regularly and it can affect the ability to get a security clearance. Security clearances can be required in some good jobs, including for engineers, telecommunications, judiciary and much more.</p>
<p>How about this: </p>
<p>If $25K of debt (total) means the difference between college and no college, take the $25K of debt. More than that, find a cheaper way to get the college education.</p>
<p>Never rush into debt especially when there are no guarantees years from now.</p>
<p>I think it’s very difficult for young people to grasp the concrete reality of what excessive – or even standard – college debt MEANS. So this post is more or less what I explained painstakingly to my son, who graduates in three days, and despite the counseling, is pretty much freaked out by the looming fiscal reality he’s facing in his job search ;)</p>
<p>Maybe YOU, OP, are the one who will hear it ;)</p>
<ol>
<li>the fed loan limits are about $30,000, and many students will require this much to get through even at their state flagships. Here’s what that amount “means” inside a life at prevailing interest rates:</li>
</ol>
<p>It is the equivalent, at a shade over $300 a month for ten years to:</p>
<p>A) your first TWO new economy cars and their respective 60-month repayment cycles – so ten years worth of Ford Fiestas, or 1.5 Fusions, for example.</p>
<p>B) a $70,000 differential on your finance-ability for a 30-year mortgage. In a “cheap” city like Grand Rapids, that is the difference between living in a high-crime neighborhood dive and a well-appointed hip urban historical or suburban home in a good school district.</p>
<p>C) that’s a little less than half the cost of pooled family healthcare coverage with a modest 2k out of pocket per or 5k family deductible. And in four years, you will have to pay this (less if not married) unless you want to let your health slide and then later really rack up some crippling debt called unintended medical debt ;)</p>
<p>D) that is roughly equivalent to the cost of a DAILY dinner out at an econo-style restaurant. So fanny Mae gets to eat before you do. She’s literally taking food out of your mouth.</p>
<p>E) put another way, that’s about 60 Little Caesars Pizzas, which might be what you end up eating for the rest of your life if you don’t manage your debt early and with vigor ;)</p>
<p>F) That’s also the equivalent of 4 -6 big name concerts each month, or roughly six dates or nights on the town.</p>
<p>Those are just some concrete examples of places a low-earning grad may find they have to cut in order to pay back that loan until their early 30s if all goes well. So maybe no car and car insurance. Or maybe a dive in a rough part of town. Or maybe no meals out, no concerts, no money to date.</p>
<p>That $300 will come from somewhere, and very few grads will make enough not to “feel” it.</p>
<p>So is the moral of the story simply not to go to school? No. The moral of the story is to make the most of the opportunity, and enjoy the life of the mind it affords you, and recognize that anything worth having requires some sacrifice. Then be prepared to make that sacrifice and mow down that debt as fast as you can.</p>
<p>Just don’t let silly notions of a dream school or debt exceeding the fed limits shackle you to a future that’s bleak and hard-scrabble, or chain you to a job you hate or a person you don’t love. Leave yourself some room to live. Then live a life you love because you chose it, you sacrificed for it, and you earned it!</p>
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<p>That’s funny, because I don’t consider debt worthwhile at all for a vehicle, and I’ve never bought a new car, or had a car loan that I didn’t pay off in 2 months. I did the car loan just out of college. Since then I’ve always paid with a bank check. </p>
<p>I consider debt worthwhile for something that’s likely to appreciate. Most often
<p>But borrowing money for a business can also be worthwhile. </p>
<p>But a car? What a waste of hard earned money.</p>
<p>*First of all, you don’t borrow all of the debt at once. You typically have four increments. </p>
<p>At the beginning, everyone should expect to do well (what I mean is assume that your likelihood of doing well is high, and thus you can afford to take more risk), and should work really hard at doing so. Each year, the calculation could be redone. If you’re really doing poorly, transfer to a cheaper school instead of continuing to dig the hole bigger. *</p>
<p>this is true as long as you have a cheaper option or you didn’t give up the chance of the cheaper option as an incoming frosh.</p>
<p>The student who was offered large merit as an incoming frosh won’t have that offer as a later transfer.</p>
<p>The student who has little/no family help may find himself still needing to borrow a lot if he later transfers to the so-called cheaper school.</p>
<p>Engineering attracts a lot of students who really don’t have what it takes or sincere interest because it has a rep for providing a high salary (we see the same thing happening with kids starting as “premed.”) It’s very risky to take on large debt when the outcome is questionable.</p>
<p>Another thing to consider… When debt is taken out when there were cheaper alternatives it does play into your morale later on when repaying those loans. If the loans were taken out to fund an unnecessary pricey school or to fund “personal expenses” (instead of getting a JOB), then repayment is especially annoying. My H was naive when he took out his student loans as a grad student. He was given free tuition and a stipend, but the listed-COA was high enough that he was able to borrow more…which he used as “fun money” (dates, movies, etc). He could have worked over the summer or even worked a bit on weekends to earn “play money,” be he didn’t. 
Paying back those loans were a total $#@%^&, knowing that most/all of it could have been avoided. If the loans were for funding a reasonable grad education, the attitude about repayment may have been different.</p>
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<p>Perhaps you are correct, but a top student giving up admission to top engineering school like for one with a far more limited upside like University of Alabama, which you often suggest, is also risking that they won’t be able to become all that they could be. That could be a very pennywise and pound foolish mistake over the course of a career. </p>
<p>I’m suggesting that both are calculated risks.</p>