yes…but as well these are all Oxbridge grads, and the banks (and other employers) hire them knowing that the Oxbridge system trains up students who can swat up on anything in no time flat! Students from other unis whose courses have the same entry requirements (in terms of A levels) do not get snapped up the same way.
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Slightly related to my original intention - are we nurturing the best minds?
This article speaking mainly about international students and skilled immigrants.
But I wonder how many talented American students and young talented workers have opted out…if companies decide to hire remotely, and colleges overseas get better students, who will be hired? People talk about better leadership here but hey, for an entry level jobs you need to be able to “Do the work”, in STEM, or (engineering, the popular majors in job market) require authentic and true ability. And the assumption of a math nerd is lack of leadership potential is just outright stereotype and false assumption.
I disagree with the claim that colleges overseas get better students. There are some excellent students in the United States and some excellent students internationally. For a more detailed comparison, you need to specify which countries and which students are being compared under what criteria of evaluation.
I’m more familiar with tech. In many areas of tech, it is common to hire remote workers who live outside of the United States. This almost always relates to reducing cost, rather than international employees being more talented than domestic employees. It can be awkward to work with remote employees on the opposite side of the world for a variety of reasons, but the cost may be half of domestic employees or less, so some companies take that trade off for a portion of employees.
With COVID-19 and companies being more friendly to remote work, Zoom/Skype meetings and such, more companies may be open to take that tradeoff. However, with higher demand and less friendly immigration policies, costs may go up for international remote employees, which could have a negative impact.
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So is the assumption that students abroad are better because those universities don’t (openly) practice holistic admissions.
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No.
Those universities will admit the bright minds (globally) because their bar/admission standard is set in the right target and their tuitions are cheaper. If a students with good math accomplishment may be overlooked by top schools in US but qualified for school like University of Toronto (Which is top ranked in CS program), they might choose better uni overseas.
This.
Companies now can hire pretty much from everywhere they want (especially for the industries offer remote work). (Global or domestic) college students with rock solid engineering knowledge will have better chances. A bright STEM-driven high school students should be placed in a good STEM programs (doesn’t matter the school rankings), and hopefully that’s the focus when admitting those students. If we lower the bar here, are we making the college education an extension to general education?
I think that’s where there is disagreement. I don’t think the bar is being lowered by utilizing holistic admission.
And for ABET accredited engineering programs, course requirements are fairly uniform.
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Even is some students who are “overlooked” by top programs in the US do go to Toronto or overseas, this doesn’t make those institutions “better.”
More generally, your overriding assumption is that the bar has been lowered here. I don’t think it has, and I’ve certainly seen no convincing evidence that it has.
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@mtmind and @momofboiler1
I also hope this is the case.
Some of the topics (grade inflation) or arguments about unrelated or fake EC here make me worry about my child’s future.
You missed @Data10’s point. They are hiring cheap labor overseas, not the best labor. Routine, repetitive stuff is easy to outsource. Those aren’t the jobs you are talking about though.
Again, back to a point I made long ago in this tired thread…your premise that the US doesn’t produce strong grads anymore is simply wrong.
What are you worried about? If they have a strong background in math and science, and you don’t buy into the myth that they have to attend a highly ranked institution in order to be successful, they’ll be just fine. Far too many on this forum worry when it just isn’t warranted.
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Then send your kid to one of the schools that uses an admissions policy you deem superior.
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And if your kid doesn’t like math and science that’s not the end of the world either. You do realize there are other jobs out there?
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I don’t think so, and I never say cheap labor. How can engineers be cheap labor? They are the highest paid jobs right now. I also never said US doesn’t produce strong grad. I am one of them myself. What I am saying is other countries can produce the same or better to compete for the positions here.
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I don’t think anyone is arguing that the US has a monopoly on strong graduates. We are arguing with your initial post claiming that holistic admission leads to weaker programs/students.
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Correction.
- I never attempt on discussion of “holistic admission”. I am only wondering why the admission process can’t be more focus on STEM related criteria.
- I never claim US school system produce weaker students but I can see programs overseas produce good candidates and advancing their technology quickly.
Several iterations/thread have gone through 1 and confirm it is the case for STEM programs here.
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Engineers overseas are cheap labor. My radiologist is in Mumbai- gets paid 1/5 of what a board certified radiologist makes in my area. Companies have built entire teams of transaction lawyers (for procurement, employment, i.e. the routine/repetitive stuff) overseas. Saves TONS of money.
Are you old enough to remember ANY of the previous recessions when engineers were taking jobs stocking shelves at supermarkets? The entire aerospace industry in California collapsed, taking with it fantastic, highly educated engineers. Those jobs didn’t vanish- they moved overseas.
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This could happen more
(1) remote working trend
(2) students/workers from other countries are capable to do well just like any candidate here.
and for (2) I attribute to the academic rigor and good education from other countries.
I think the point - that many are making here - is that yes, “students/workers from other countries are capable to do well just like any candidate here” but, importantly, they are willing to do this work at a much lower cost than those here. So what ends up happening is that there is a strata in many of these fields where the high added value jobs are often done in the US by US employees paid well and the more commoditized jobs - still talking STEM jobs - can be outsourced overseas. They are not outsourced because those employees are better, smarter, or better educated, but rather because they can be utilized for a lower cost. This has been going on for a long time - before Covid, before remote work, and before college admissions got crazy. Over a decade ago I worked with a programmer in Armenia over Skype to build the program I designed because it was cost effective for the hedge fund who employed me to employ him rather than a programmer in the states.
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So for example, if your child is (academically) qualified for CS in University of Toronto (which is famous for Computer Science) however can only get into much lower ranked private colleges here which cost way more than University of Toronto, would you consider the former at all?
Which suggests that, for any current high school or college student, the necessary financial plan is to live below your means and try to get into the capitalist class as soon as possible, in order to reduce the your risk in the event that arbitrary decisions by billionaires or hedge funds etc. eliminate or export your job and others that you would be qualified to take. With the increasing power of capital over labor in the economy, this is likely to be more important for future generations than the ones living now.
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