Why is it impossible to admit STEM majors purely by merits? [implied: elite or highly selective / rejective]

Understand. People like to talk about the outsources projects in India. Some companies famously build large software development centers in India as well. They might be getting paid well in terms of their living standard. I am not sure.

I just recently worked with an engineer in Spain. I don’t think he is paid in crap consider his location (Barcelona) and responsibilities. What I meant to say is we can potentially hire someone remotely and they are comparably paid well in the context of their living standard. They are just equally qualified.

Yes, this will happen more. But you are assuming that it’s happening because the students overseas are smarter, better, more qualified than those in the US because they don’t practice holistic admissions and we do.

And there is zero evidence for your assumption- and in fact, much evidence for the reverse- the commoditized jobs (yes, even in STEM) go overseas, and the jobs requiring creativity and innovation stay in the US. So perhaps the problem is that students overseas are INFERIOR to those in the US?

I’m NOT making that argument btw… just pointing out the logical fallacy in yours. There is zero evidence- at least right now- to support your claim. Off-shoring has been happening for almost 25 years at this point (off-shoring of white collar jobs… of course the move of manufacturing overseas dates to right after WW2). There was little remote work back in the mid-1990’s for example-- and companies were establishing operations overseas for payroll, legal, procurement, contracting. Then came the tech bust in 2001… which accelerated it. And technology made it much, much easier to manage an overseas operation.

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That article is full of pure nonsense.

Was there a competition for “how many hyperbolic, inaccurate, and ridiculous statements can you put in a single article and still get it published”?

People have NEVER gone to American universities because of “America’s reputation”. That is something that the author seems to have imagined. People come because of the reputation of America’s universities, and because, for many students in India and China, it is often easier to be accepted to a top university in the USA than to a top university in India or China. The reputation of America’s universities hasn’t changed. The fact that applications have increased is evidence of this.

We had a very small drop in enrollment of international students in 2019 because it was more difficult to get visas under Trump, and fewer also applied due to an expectation of rejection. But this was really small.

The big drop was all because of this little thing called “a PANDEMIC” which the author seems to have missed. COVID reduced travel, and also made it difficult for international students to come here. That is why the number of USA students abroad dropped by 50%, from 347,099 students to 162,633, while the number of international students dropped by 15%, from 1,075,496 to 914,095. A quick calculations shows that 161,401 fewer international students enrolled in the USA, while, in turn, 184,466 more domestic students enrolled in the USA instead of overseas.

I don’t know, but that really does not look like a “brain drain” to me.

Also, with 914, 095 international students coming, and only 162,633 American students going away, it looks to me like we have a brain import machine here.

The USA is STILL attracting more international students than, say, the EU. There were, in 2021, over 914,000 international students attending USA universities. At the same time, around 728,000 non-European students were studying in the EU.

In 2020, the USA got around 610,000 students from Asia, while only 325,000 attended EU universities.

The EU is, in fact, larger than the USA, though they’re older - the EU has about 30% more people than the USA, but has around 6% fewer students in tertiary institutions. The USA has around 5% of its students population from outside of the USA, while the EU has around 4% from outside Europe.

Applications from international students actually went up by around 18% in the last year, even though enrollment is still lower than it was in 2020.

The idea that people are moving massively from USA to Europe is false, because they couldn’t go there even if they wanted. Residency and citizenship in most European countries are very difficult to attain. At least for counties to which people want to move. I don’t see people massively flowing to Romania or Bulgaria (which is actually a nice place).

Basically, for him, a 17% drop in foreign students is “plummeting”, but a 50% drop in USA students in Europe is not something that happened.

Hyperbole, hyperbole, hyperbole.

He claims that enrollment is plunging “like never before”, and quoting an article which says largest decline in a decade". In a decade is not actually “ever before”. To quote the article itself: “That one-year decline of 3.5% is the largest spring semester enrollment decrease since 2011” I guess that the author doesn’t know what happened in the USA before 2015 or something.

So many other gems.

PS. we are now also recipients of many smart people from Russia, so there’s that.

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Nope. My arguments have always been: do we give the best resources to the best qualified STEM students. I also do NOT think students overseas are INFERIOR to those in US, quite the contrary due to some of K-12 education issue.

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But the employer then has to prove there isn’t a US worker who can do the job (if the job is in the US), pay for the visa and other costs. Is that excluding the qualified workers in the US?

My daughter never considered going to school overseas but there are tons of foreign students wanting to study in the US.

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Another thing to note.

When hiring an engineer in the US, you have to provide health insurance and employers often pay the bulk of that cost.

When hiring an engineer in Spain, they already have government health insurance and the only thing the employer might have to pay is an employment tax there, if they hire enough people and Spain has passed laws to that effect.

There are probably other benefits that are similarly different between the US and other countries, but that one sticks way out like a sore thumb.

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I see. I also worked with a few engineers from Belarus (and Italy) before the pandemic. They are also bunch of bright minds. Asked them if they are interested in moving here, none of them said yes. :woman_shrugging:

Or simply do a job that can’t be exported. I don’t think you can export the job of a firefighter, a police officer, a nurse, a K-12 teacher, etc. And not all those jobs even require a college degree!

The disparity between the haves and have nots has been increasing over time here in the US, so, yes, that is a fair conclusion if one is aspiring to the capitalist class. It may also explain why many of the current high school students are striving for “top” college degrees where top means talented and trained in a coveted/well paid field. They may hold the belief - valid or not - that an elite education will help propel them to the “haves” and put them in that category of desirable in a high paying field. We certainly see a ton of chance me for top schools…

However, this presumes that aspiring to be part of the capitalist class is the driving factor. Financial goals may not be what drives everyone. As @Twoin18 notes, there are lots of other paths that provide a good living and add significant value to our communities.

I’m not at all convinced by the supposed connection with the “capitalist class”. Being highly desired for your skills and experience at work has nothing to do with whether you amass enough assets to live on if your job is outsourced. It is almost the opposite: you are looking for a job that can’t or won’t be outsourced, not planning to survive when it is.

Typical US students do not consider going to college overseas. Far more common, is attending a domestic “match” or “safety” college if not accepted to a domestic “reach” college. For example, a student who is rejected to Cornell CS/Eng might choose to attend RPI instead or attend a SUNY under the “tuition-free” Excelsior Scholarship for NYS residents. I’d expect that being rejected at Cornell does not significantly decrease chances of living in the United States.

Most people are location sticky. Even getting them to move within the US is difficult. Often the promotions go to someone that is willing to move, not the most qualified.

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Will the billionaires and hedge funds support funding (with taxes) the local governments and districts to provide those services at a high level of quality (while they hire private schools for their own kids, their own private security, etc.)?

No. My DD would not have wanted to go to school in Canada. And given the small number of American students who choose an international school, she’d be in good company. There are literally hundreds of good schools here. No need to fixate on a few and leave the country if you don’t get into a select few.

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We have too many cousins overseas who are DYING to study in the US for my kids to have considered going abroad for college!

Increasing income disparity isn’t just a US phenomenon. It’s global, and one of the drawbacks of globalization. The disparity is fueling nationalism everywhere around the world, which will likely reverse, gradually but surely, the trend of globalization. The peak of outsourcing is almost certainly behind us. I’d be more concerned about the impact of technology than cheap labor elsewhere.

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For companies in tech this is no longer an issue. The internet and cloud made it possible for a programmer and nearly every other job in tech to work in nearly every place. When I worked in tech in the early 90’s, yes companies had to prove that there wasn’t an available local person. Large companies used to write up job descriptions so only one person could fill it. I worked in Canada this way for multiple years. Today, it’s literally, can this person do the job? Great how do we get the time zone down and manage the project. That’s it.

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But then that person isn’t IN the US, and many of the students who want to go to school in the US want to stay in the US and work in the US. Many who went to schools in India and China and Saudi Arabia also want to work IN the US.

Who wouldn’t? We’re the best!

Well lot’s of people in many fields are educated outside the US and yet, they work for US firms. So they have no need or desire to come to the US.
There is, of course, an entirely different group of students. These folks want to stay in the US. And yes, many are from India and China. Not sure about Saudi Arabia. It’s tough for students who don’t have at least a Masters to get a job and stay. But some degrees make it much easier to get a green card/other documentation.

By making less money for the same work. We send outsourceable programming to India because the median SE yearly salary is about 1/10th what it is in the US, under $10K/yr.

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