<p>Michigan was my safety school. Stop posting Michigan statistics on the Vandy board. Nobody here cares about state schools.</p>
<p>Orangeisland, if you know anything about Michigan then you would know that no one should consider it a safety. That's like those uneducated people saying that for IIT people that "MIT is their safety." The above stats are a comparison of Vanderbilt vs UC Berkeley and Michigan, which addresses the original posters' points about how Vanderbilt compares to these other world-class schools. Please don't jump into the middle of something without reading at least some of the posts for this thread.</p>
<p>And if you want the simplest measure of "better schools" just look at the peer assessment rank. From 2004 US News:</p>
<p>(#1-5)
4.9 - Harvard, Princeton, MIT, Stanford, Yale
4.8 - Yale
(#6-12)
4.7 - Caltech, Chicago, UC Berkeley
4.6 - Cornell, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, Michigan
(#13-18)
4.5 - Duke, Penn
4.4 - Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Virginia
(#17-24)
4.3 - UCLA, Wisconsin
4.2 - WashU, Rice, CMU, UNC
(#25-29)
4.1 - UT Austin, Emory, <strong><em>Vanderbilt</em></strong>, GeorgiaTech, UIUC
(#30-41)
4.0 - Georgetown, Washington
3.9 - Notre Dame, UCSD, PSU
3.8 - USC, NYU, William and Mary, UC Davis, Indiana, Minnesota, Purdue</p>
<p>Vanderbilt is worthy of being a top 30 school, and as you can see, it is in good company. HYPSM dominates the list, and their influence is also known through their endowment (they are the top 6 in that list, by far). I have much respect for the likes of Emory, Georgia Tech, UIUC, and Vanderbilt. These are strong schools, but it has to be put in perspective when looking at all the top schools.</p>
<p>Michigan was my safety school, because it is easy to get into. Look at the stats --</p>
<p>From the UMich website:
23,842 Applications
13,565 Admissions
=(57%+ admit rate)</p>
<p>Test Scores:
SAT I Total of 12401400 </p>
<p>Vanderbilt admissions:
From the Vandy website:
11,643 Applications
4,092 Admissions
=35% admit rate (31% last year)</p>
<p>Test Scores:
SAT I: 1320-1450</p>
<p>No worries though, Michigan is worthy of being a top 30 school, and as you can see, it is in good company. HYPSM dominates the list, and their influence is also known through their endowment (they are the top 6 in that list, by far). I have much respect for the likes of Michigan and other state schools. These are strong schools, but it has to be put in perspective when looking at all the top schools.</p>
<p>Michigan's top 1500 freshmen (roughly top 25%): 1400-1600 SAT
Vanderbilt's top 1500 freshmen (roughly their entire freshmen class): 900-1600 SAT</p>
<p>While we're at it, let's compare apples to oranges. I've already written multiple posts explaining why US News' formula (which uses a lot of their basis on a per capita standard, similar to what you just did) is heavily flawed when comparing these medium private schools and large public schools.</p>
<p>I got my numbers from the school's websites. You can make up numbers and rationalize the numbers if it makes you sleep easier at night. If you take the top 25% of any school, the numbers will be impressive. But when you look at the complete picture, Vanderbilt attracts the more impressive students.</p>
<p>Using the same sources for statistics, I just showed you Michigan has <em>more</em> impressive students than Vanderbilt (because, gasp!, it's a larger school). This is why you <em>cannot</em> [meaningfully] compare schools this way.</p>
<p>Fine. Michigan is an elite school and only the brightest minds and highest test scores can survive its brutal 57% admissions rate.</p>
<p>If Vanderbilt had to accept 67% of Tennesseeans, they'd be lucky to get a 57% admissions rate.</p>
<p>Keep in mind 93% of UC Berkeley students are in-staters.</p>
<p>If If If.....sorry it doesn't change the fact that smart kids can walk-in to Michigan and use it as a safety.</p>
<p>What other "prestigious" schools have a 50%+ admissions rate?</p>
<p>Prestige doesn't come just from a low admissions rate. Look at Case Western, which has a 68% acceptance rate (self-selective). People look at Michigan's College of Engineering's acceptance rate of 73% and are smart enough to know its not because its easier to be an engineer (it's not) but that it's self-selective (median ACT of 30, SAT of 1380, and GPA of 3.8). Wisconsin has a 68% admissions rate (peer assessment 4.3 vs Vanderbilt's 4.1). Likewise, Georgia Tech, one of the top engineering schools in America, has 67% acceptance rate. University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (equal peer assessment score with Vandy) has a 58% acceptance rate. Purdue, while not as "prestigious" overall as Vanderbilt, is also one of the top ten engineering schools in America but has an 85% acceptance rate.</p>
<p>Yeah, I would never attend any of those schools. When I think of elites Case Western and Purdue do not exactly jump into mind. To each his own.</p>
<p>To be fair, many people probably don't think of Vanderbilt as an elite school, despite the egos of some.</p>
<p>You want to know just how Vandy competes against other schools? Look at this discussion board, for one. With the exception of this thread and all its posts, Vanderbilt is <em>dead last</em> among the "CC Top Universities." Caltech, Carnegie Mellon, Duke, Emory, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Northwestern, Rice, Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Chicago, Michigan, UNC, Notre Dame, Virginia, and WashU all manage better in popularity here at College Confidential.</p>
<p>I like how you criticize the application totals and selectivity from the schools websites but you find CC post counts to be examinable data -- a messageboard on the Internet -- to assert 'popularity' of schools. Maybe you could write USNEWS and tell them to incorporate CC post counts in a desperate attempt to raise Michigan's ranking.</p>
<p>I think you don't like it because Vanderbilt doesn't do as well as its peer institutes. As many posters have said, CC is a self-selective group -- the kids on these boards are not representative of the American masses (how many of you have seen 10 APs and all 5's, never gotten below 30 on the ACT?). So likewise, it would make sense that these bright young people would be interested in going on the boards about their schools to learn more. If you want to show something as meaningless as mid-50% SAT scores for a school with 1600 freshmen versus a school with 6000 freshmen as well as a small private school vs a large public school's acceptance rate, then don't be surprised for meaningless CC stats.</p>
<p>If I may, the last four pages of posts basically comes down to this...
Michigan, UC Berkeley, and the likes are quite underrepresented in the overall US News list. Likewise, some schools (WashU, Vanderbilt, etc.) are overrated on said list. While employers know where they really stand, it does a disservice to impressionable high schoolers who apply to a school merely because it's high up on a single list. The original poster wanted to know what justified Vanderbilt being a top 20 school when it isn't too strong in a wide range of areas. Whereas some schools have breadth (Penn State) and others have depth (Georgia Tech), we should appreciate the schools that are exceptional at also having both (Michigan, UC Berkeley, etc.) in a world-class standard.</p>
<h2>Your posts are funny. SAT scores and selectivity have no meaning. But CC posts should be considered.</h2>
<p>I respect those state schools at the graduate level but they are terribly overrated at the undergraduate level. If you really think Michigan is a world-class standard, I hope you enjoy your experiences. Best of luck to you.</p>
<p>I refer one to Philosophical Gourmet regarding undergraduate study:
<a href="http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/undergrad.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/undergrad.htm</a></p>
<p>"High school students interested in philosophy would do best to identify schools that have strong reputations for undergraduate education first. Only then, should they look in to the quality of the philosophy department. Some ranked PhD programs have good reputations for undergraduate education, like Princeton , Yale, Brown and Rice, among many others. The larger universities (like Harvard or Michigan or Texas ) tend to offer a more mixed undergraduate experience, largely due to their size. Since much of the teaching at those institutions will be done by graduate students, it pays to go to a school with a strong PhD program, since that will affect the intellectual caliber of teachers you will encounter."</p>
<p>As for world rankings:</p>
<p>From The Economist (<a href="http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4339960%5B/url%5D">http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4339960</a>)</p>
<h1>4. UC Berkeley</h1>
<h1>19. University of Michigan</h1>
<p>Vanderbilt is unranked.</p>
<p>The Times Higher Education Supplement
<a href="http://www.ccer.edu.cn/ss/world-rankingsUnis.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.ccer.edu.cn/ss/world-rankingsUnis.pdf</a>
2. UC Berkeley [#2 in North America]
31. Michigan [#18 in North America]
156. Vanderbilt [#54 in North America]</p>
<p>Institute of Higher Learning (Shanghai) World Rankings
<a href="http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005TOP500list.htm%5B/url%5D">http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005TOP500list.htm</a>
4. UC Berkeley (regional rank 3)
21. Michigan (regional rank 18)
39. Vanderbilt (regional rank 32)</p>
<p>So the Shanghai rankings are more accurate than USNEWS because they give preference to your school. That ranking also has UArizona ranked higher than Brown. Theres a reason why nobody pays attention to those frivolous rankings. Revealed Preference (measures cross-admit battles) is much more telling and has Vanderbilt ranked higher. </p>
<p>The bottom line is I think UMichigan is an incredibly overrated school and you probably think the same about Vanderbilt. It is unlikely we will convince each other otherwise, so there is no need to debate the point any further.</p>
<p>If you don't want to continue this debate, that is fine.
What you're basically saying is I find Vanderbilt overranked in the overall US News list and you find Michigan overranked in <em>almost every other listing</em>.</p>
<p>And one last round of statistics, some real and the first just to show how numbers can be manipulated (anyone who thinks above a 50% acceptance makes it no longer elite does not realize the situation for what it is):</p>
<p>Vanderbilt engineering acceptance rate was 51.4% for 2005. Why significant? Engineering is the second most-sought field at Vanderbilt (14% engineering compared to 27% social sciences). Vanderbilt had very few international students (65 people in 2005, resulting in 4% of freshmen body).</p>
<p>From CollegeBoard:
Top 10th of graduating class - Berkeley (99%), Michigan (90%), Vanderbilt (77%)
Student Body
UC Berkeley - 47% Asian, 30% white, 10% hispanic, 3% black, 10% other/unreported
Michigan - 62% white, 13% Asian, 7% black, 5% hispanic, 13% other/unreported
Vanderbilt - 64% white, 8% black, 7% asian, 6% hispanic, 15% other/unreported</p>
<p>Like it or not, employers do judge schools by their racial diversity (hence why Wisconsin has been having trouble, due to having a mostly white state and having to have a certain percentage of in-staters). Michigan and UC Berkeley (the latter not having affirmative action, if I recall) both have a serious edge, despite being large public schools.</p>
<p>Now should you say that for some reason, it's easier to be more diverse if you're a large school instead of the smaller, almost hand-picking admissions of small schools, here's Harvard's (almost identical in size to Vanderbilt) data: 47% white, 19% Asian, 9% black, 7% hispanic, and 18% other/unreported. I trust the reader can make the obvious comparisons as to how this stacks up.</p>
<p>do you have some complex or something? you agreed to stop this stupid debate and you followup with some more stats?
it seems the only significant difference between Harvard and Vandy racial diversity is the white and asian population (i do realize that the hispanic population is not noted at Vandy but one can assume that they would fall under the unreported. And yes there are hispanics at Vanderbilt as there is both a Hispanic fraternity and a Hispanic sorority.Harvards hispanic population isnt very high anyway) Vandy's asian population is on the rise with a 12%(? i think it was 12%) increase in Asian applicants and increases in most minority groups with the highest rise coming in hispanic apps.
So..what can we conclude?
Vandy students like Vandy. UMich students like UMich. Both have pride in their schools. Great.
I will not take you as representative of the Michigan student population otherwise I would also conclude that they come into other schools threads just to start...or finish or however you put it..beef. Thats all it is, this thread could have ended a long time ago if not for your stats and rankings. Of which I am very skeptical...WashU ranked below Iowa and Texas AM? and as the other poster noted Brown ranked below Arizona? hm. But whatever, everybody knows that USNews should be taken with a grain of salt and is meant to give a general idea of where schools stand. I have no doubt that you will reply with some more stats and rankings but if we could end this here thatd be great. Thanks.</p>