I am the aunt of a recruited athlete at HYP, so yes, I do know “what it takes”. Do you understand what it takes to be extraordinary in debate, or other activities? Apparently not. More importantly, this is a choice by the student and the family, made possible by circumstances. There are equally dedicated students working 40 hours a week to support their families, or caring for siblings, or overcoming horrific conditions. Athletes do not have exclusive rights to grit or perseverance, or dedication.
I don’t want to be too specific…but one is a type of water sport and the other is related to track (but is not track). My family member was trying to be recruited for a more popular sport (football, baseball, basketball etc).
The challenges and sacrifices etc that the families of recruited athletes make…in no way diminishes the dedication, hard work, challenges etc that other families also experience.
I don’t think anybody was intentionally suggesting otherwise.
These posts led me to take a look at our school’s naviance (large highly ranked public non-test in), which sends many students to highly selective schools each year, many are recruited athletes.
A sampling of the last 3 years admissions that have relatively low test scores, most of these will be recruited athletes…some I am certain, some less so. Some could be legacies and not athletes, some could be both. No URMs. Weaknesses of naviance: even though I know many of these students who matriculated at a given school I don’t necessarily know their test scores/gpas, don’t know year (of last 3 years), or admission round.
Brown - non-revenue, non NCAA sport, 27 ACT, wgpa just above the class median wgpa, so second quartile.
Dartmouth - uncertain of sport/gender but not revenue sports:
–27 ACT, wgpa well below class median…possibly in bottom quartile
–29 ACT, wgpa below class median, probably 3rd quartile
Harvard: uncertain of sport/gender, one is highly likely a men’s rev sport
–29 ACT, wgpa below median, probably 3rd quartile
– 30 ACT, wgpa just above median, so 2nd quartile
Stanford: non-rev, non-NCAA sports
–two 29 ACTs, with wGPAs in top quartile, probably around the top 10-12%.
Williams: uncertain of sport/gender, but neither of these are football or basketball.
–two 28 ACTs, with wgpas in 2nd quartile
Edited to add: class average ACT is typically between 27-28 across 900+ students/class
Do students in the debate club practice 5 hrs a day after school 5 days a week and longer on Saturday? From the age of at least 10-11, in some cases younger? My daughter and every other fencer good enough to be on the level it takes to be recruited by an Ivy in this sport would leave school to head to her fencing club five days a week and would practice until 10 PM. Once, she got home she would have to eat, begin her coursework, do papers, study for tests. She would wake up around 3-4 AM to finish work she couldn’t complete before going to bed. She did not sleep many hours during Upper school. On Sat she would be at the club practicing from 8 AM-4PM. During fencing season she would travel twice a month. Once, Nationally from Oct-April to some obscure place one would never have any interest in visiting. And, once internationally to an equally obscure foreign country. To be this level of recruit requires being top 32 in the National Juniors ranking, and top 10 in your weapon graduating your recruiting year. These fencers HAVE to compete on the National and International circuit. This has to be done while maintaining a challenging course load and competing for class ranking with talented student who don’t have this time commitment. So many days of school have to be missed and work made up. These students are always having to catch up on work due to days missed traveling to these tournaments. The majority of schools aren’t sympathetic to this. I would watch my daughter and simultaneously admire her and feel incredibly sorry for her. Sometimes I would try to put my foot down and say you have to miss practice. Or, we have to skip this tournament you are missing too many days. You need to rest. She was so determined to reach her goals that she literally willed herself. She attended one of the more challenging Prep Schools in the country academically on top of it.
You really think you can compare this to an EC like the debate team? I agree there are other situations than can be as or more challenging to have to overcome. The DEBATE TEAM is not one of them. By, the way my daughter won an award her school holds in high regard as a member of the debate team. She has a plaque on the wall in her former school memorializing this accomplishment. I know what it takes to be on the debate team.
Let’s not have this thread shut down for debating. I am sure we can all agree it takes significant levels of dedication, hours, etc. to be at the top of any sport, or activity. Generally, AOs are able to sort thru this…and of course, students self-report on their app how many hours per week they spend on their activities.
As a former recruited athlete. There’s good points being made on each side. There’s no doubt it’s a big commitment and it was no doubt helpful for college admissions.
Here’s the thing. I didn’t play my sport to show commitment or get into a good college.
I loved playing it. It was fun. And it was really fun to play well and have teammates that were your buddies. There was also something about being really good at something relative to your peers that was empowering.
Practice is a little boring but you live for games and meets. And the adulation or notoriety, even at the hs level does make it a bit more worth the grind.
But I played practiced and trained for the games. And to be the best I could be. To win.
I also had a part time job at a gas station. That wasn’t particularly hard but certainly didn’t have any physic income like sports.
Kids working after school or taking care of siblings isn’t recognized the same way. Is it the the same amount of hours. No.
Both should be admired.
Thank you. I don’t have any experience in those sports.
Absolutely.
Just to clarify: probably not for an average competitor, maybe half that; this all depends on the individual/club. However, at extraordinary levels, certainly 25 hrs/weekdays is possible. And time at Saturday debate competitions even for the beginner can last 12 hours, typically 9 minimum. (Generally, I think academic activities and athletics are apples and oranges, hard to compare.)
Yes, but then the debater is coming home on Sat. They aren’t traveling around the world missing days of school. You say at “extraordinary levels” it’s “possible”. This depicts that even by your account it’s rare. In the world I described, it’s required. My daughter wasn’t special or some outlier. It is required to compete at that level. I have an enormous amount of respect for these kind of student athletes. They are every bit of both. I was a great student and good athlete in HS. But, I wasn’t competing on a world class level. I can humbly say I don’t know if I had it in me at that age to do what my daughter did. The level of commitment just isn’t comparable.
It may be closer than you may think. Debate competitors at high levels absolutely travel.
Note to self. Don’t “debate“ a debate expert. Or try to “counter” a fencing expert.
Both will leave me on the wrong end of the CC scoreboard. Lol.
I don’t have exact numbers, but it is my perception based on various anecdotes over the years that the HS debaters at our school miss the most days of school in a given year than do any of the athletes, or those participating in other top activities (math/science/robotics competitions, etc.)
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It would be great if a debater or parent of a debater weighed in. My daughter debated and it wasn’t near the commitment.
One mom told me directly that her daughter on the debate team missed 27 days of school in one semester. That’s a lot!
Hockey players (whether for the school team or local AAA teams) tend to miss a lot too…at a minimum every Friday from October-March. Other athletic teams’ missed days would be more short-term in nature.
@evergreen5 if they do have this time commitment then obviously it’s applicable. I’m talking about an EC that’s basically an after school activity. Not an equal part of kid’s life as school.
One mom told me directly that her daughter on the debate team missed 27 days of school in one semester. That’s a lot!
Hockey players (whether for the school team or local AAA teams) tend to miss a lot too…at a minimum every Friday from October-March. Other athletic teams’ missed days would be more short-term in nature.
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Wow! Really? Is this typical?
And others got to be captain of an HYP varsity team without anywhere near the kind of hours described herein. Maybe they were just more naturally talented. Or Maybe that sport doesn’t require as many hours, or they managed the commitment differently. There are many students who show extraordinary perseverance in many endeavors, which goes to the point of why it is so hard to get into some schools to begin with.