<p>If you're a practicing engineer, you rise from the $50-70K you start out at very slowly and hit a ceiling. Relatively high salaries to start out of undergrad but they don't go up much and many major pass them. That's why many engineers don't want to just have a typical engineering job. I'll have to ask DH exactly what kids make in management consulting these days, but with bonus it's definitely into the 6 figures out of undergrad to start and must be minimum $150K with an MBA with both going up fast. VC would be similar or higher during good years. If you're not making half a million in either by year 7 you're looking for a job.</p>
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To say it's not uncommon to go from a tech consulting position to becoming a partner at McKinsey is a stretch at best. You would have to be highly unusual and the best of the best.
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<p>What? I personally know at least a dozen people who've made the jump back and forth between Tech and Business at the high levels. It's also fairly common for people to leave manufacturing and join business consulting firms at the partner level. </p>
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You don't need to make 6 figures to support a family.
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<p>It depends on where you live and your lifestyle.</p>
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I'll have to ask DH exactly what kids make in management consulting these days, but with bonus it's definitely into the 6 figures out of undergrad to start and must be minimum $150K with an MBA with both going up fast.
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<p>Starting ranges pretty substantially, from $40,000 to $70,000 to start (again, the undergraduates that get into management consulting are from top schools and at the top of their class). Typical MBA is $110,000 to $120,000 starting (after $100,000 in tuition and $200,000 in lost salary at a top school) and increase from there.</p>
<p>I thought we were talking about McKinsey peers. These guys, with bonus, out of undrgrad, exceed $100K to start. Nothing close to a McKinsey peer is paying $40K. And for MBA's, that may be a base, but they get considerably more to start.</p>
<p>My DH being a partner in one of the big boys for decades now, I know the partners and where they came from well. There are certainly nowhere close to dozens at the partner level in his firm that came from the IBM type consulting jobs.</p>
<p>So getting an MBA is ALMOST guaranteeing you a six figure salary? I say almost because it's not always the case but overall if you have experience in engineering then an MBA can guarantee you six figures?</p>
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My DH being a partner in one of the big boys for decades now, I know the partners and where they came from well. There are certainly nowhere close to dozens at the partner level in his firm that came from the IBM type consulting jobs.
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<p>That's fine. Being a former SM, faculty at a major university that supplies the "big boys", and married to a partner at one (who has jumped from technology to business twice, once at a lower level and once at the high level), I must be wrong. </p>
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So getting an MBA is ALMOST guaranteeing you a six figure salary? I say almost because it's not always the case but overall if you have experience in engineering then an MBA can guarantee you six figures?
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<p>It depends on the school and your performance in the school relative to other students. There are plenty of MBAs out there making $50,000 / yr or less. People often make the same mistake with MBAs that they do with JD's: some people think being a lawyer is automatic wealth, but they miss that there are some lawyers coming out of school with $150,000 in debt and making $40,000 / yr.</p>
<p>Getting a top 10 MBA all but guarantees you six figures, even if you're at the bottom of the class. A recent survey I saw for a class at Stanford GSB showed nearly 80% self reporting being multimillionaires. In my business, banking, we're even promising the undergrads we're hiring this year, in this economy, six figures --to give you perspective.</p>
<p>Agree with what most people above have said... wait 4-8 years and try for an MBA at a top university with company sponsorship. You will be glad you waited.</p>
<p>Almost no company will put you through a full time MBA program.</p>
<p>"In my business, banking, we're even promising the undergrads we're hiring this year, in this economy, six figures --to give you perspective."</p>
<p>Right there, priceless. Here is a classic example of money put to good use, right? </p>
<p>You can argue for ages that the only way to success in life is a degree from one of these schools that you always talk about, Harvard, Stanford, etc., be an engineer from MIT, Caltech, youll get the MC, VC job right out of school that way etc..etc..</p>
<p>I have a question for you. Do you think that most people can relate to this stuff? Yes, you worked in the admissions office of a top undergrad program, your kid(s) go to similar schools. But, I have to tell you that you sound extremely arrogant, in almost all of your posts.</p>
<p>Anyway, as for the bankers getting 100+ right out of undergrad right now, have fun with that. I honestly dont know how you guys sleep at night. I would pay 100+ to have a job where Im not surrounded by obnoxious, arrogant, nonperforming and overpaid snobs around me all of the time. Go try to find an engineer who gets a bonus when they build a bridge that collapses.</p>
<p>I find it rather disheartening that six figure salaries are being given to entry level bankers (even investment bankers) in this economy.</p>
<p>Also, given that engineering curiculum is 10x more demanding than anything an econ or finance major would go through. This is part of my dissent against my own undergrad degree and the reason for my MBA. Not that I want to be an overpaid snob without any responsibility or recourse for my actions. But because I want to see what is right get done, and not what is best for the pocket book of those in control.</p>
<p>When the banks get nationalized here in a couple of months we'll hear all the sob stories I'm sure.</p>
<p>Purdue, I'm sorry that reality bothers you. Kids come here and ask very specific questions. They are earnestly trying to figure out how to spend their time and money to have the future they want. I give factual answers. If you consider that arrogance you need to look up the definition. I am completely aware the majority of people resent the fact that a handful of the schools in this Country deliver you to different places than the rest. I didn't make the rules, I just share them with those who want to understand them because most people are to afraid to because they will get responses like yours. However, I choose to help kids rather than be PC.</p>
<p>Japher, I have a friend about my age, 50 something, who's an engineer and really has never enjoyed it. When I ask why he became one he told me it was because he wanted to conquer his college's hardest major. He found business and econ classes to easy. Wow! Who taught anyone hard was a good thing or something to value? Take a look at what the world pays for, it's clearly not hard things. So if what you want is a high paying job, respond accordingly. My oldest, at MIT, has struggled with his love of engineering and his love of NYC and it's high prices and reacted accordingly.</p>
<p>And please, understand the banking situation rather than the media headlines. These kids will get their $100K or so, probably 40% less than they would have gotten last year, because this Country is falling apart and we need the smartest people we can find to save companies, help them merge and get acquired so they don't disappear and structure financing to allow them to grow and prosper again. Like all the companies engineers work for. The architect working on my house was telling me yesterday that kids at the local state school in majors related to building have zero job prospects. Are you guys thinking the stimulus plan will be their savior?</p>
<p>HMOM</p>
<p>It seems to me that you will simply not understand my point of view because you are immersed in the lifestyle, nonetheless, you certainly misunderstood what I meant with my post.</p>
<p>The fact is that success is measured by an individual, not a paycheck. Let me promise you that the smartest people in the country are not running our financial institutions. I have a sound understanding of economics, and I do realize what happened to cause this mess. The fact is that it’s gross negligence over the years, always trading a higher profit for sound reasoning. It’s people like you who would give their soul for an extra buck who got us here, and now we’re being asked to let those same people get us out of the mess. </p>
<p>It’s people like me who question why I want to attend MBA programs like Harvard and Wharton when I realize it’s people like you selecting who they admit to their club. I guess deep down I hope that the mission statements of those schools comes through in some of their employees, because it certainly does not with you. </p>
<p>You should write your own mission statement. I believe it would go something like this. </p>
<p>We hope to admit only privileged snobs, diversity to us means the same cookie cutter person wearing different clothes. If you haven’t worked in banking or consulting, we don’t want you. If you hope to have a rewarding career balancing real life with work, this place is not for you. We do hope that you value money above all else, and that you are as obsessed with brand names as we are. We really don’t care if you’ve produced anything, as long as you have the right names on your resume and recommendations. </p>
<p>Keep trying to help the privileged people become more privileged, for obviously, it is them who are in need of the most help…</p>
<p>I hope that this thread is not headed toward a sour note--frankly, I have thought most of the comments are interesting and somewhat informative. I also do not believe that anyone can predict with any certainty at this point in our economy that an MBA degree over an engineering degree or vice versa is going to guarantee success. The past experiences of some of the previous posters have certainly provided some insight and info into the field. They offer some valuable info for options for what should surely be a personal decision - Thanks!</p>
<p>purduefrank, of course most people would be a bit leery of business/finance types in this economy, but really this was a thread about making the highest salary and not about what jobs are the most beneficial to society and so hmom's input is welcome given the values of the OP (and other people who have asked questions here).</p>
<p>Again Purdue, I didn't make the rules nor do I necessarily support them, which I have written about many times on these boards. I also didn't come from privilege and there was unfortunately no one openly telling me about how it all worked so I had to trip my way to where I wanted to go. I am simply telling those who want to know the unblemished truth about how all this works.</p>
<p>P.S., with the chip on your shoulder, you're right, think hard about whether you would enjoy HBS or Wharton et al. They are filled with unapologetic go getters who want fame or fortune....to live the America dream. Some want money, others want power, but they all want to become the .000001% of the privileged. Most believe if they have the stuff and are willing to work like a dog, they'll come out on top.</p>
<p>Please don't forget, unlike 30 years ago when I entered this fray, it's not just clients kids getting the jobs anymore. Ivies today are biased towards low income and URMs over the prep school crowd, which they take fewer from every year. Top MBA programs are no longer full of low GPA Harvard grads. Kids in the seats at the top schools have performed like champs to get there. Elite jobs in America today are held by people who've jumped through hoops to get them.</p>
<p>"Japher, I have a friend about my age, 50 something, who's an engineer and really has never enjoyed it. When I ask why he became one he told me it was because he wanted to conquer his college's hardest major. He found business and econ classes to easy."</p>
<p>You are correct, I just don't like it. I'm glad I figured it out while I'm relatively young (34). I have expressed my disdain for my degree on these boards before. However, for those who like technical work engineering is a good major, that pays respectfully, and has good career stability. I'm getting my MBA right now (had an 'easy' Finance test yesterday) and have been working with my career counciler, networking on LinkedIn, and questioning my mentors on a career strategy for when I graduate at the end of the year. If you know of anyone who might be able to offer information on making a career change or will be looking to hire an engineer turned businessman drop me a line. </p>
<p>Purduefrank's frustration is understandable, I feel it too. Get the degree and get inside so you can fix it. Being angry and running into the woods like many a hermit soul doesn't solve the problem, neither does berating people. You must appeal to people in negotiation, imploy a winnable strategy, and not railroad people. Vito on the Godfather was excellent at this.</p>
<p>I understand Purdue too, his anger is just misdirected. Life isn't fair, how many time have I told my kid's that? Decide what you want in life and figure out what games you must play to get it. Games distasteful to you? Figure out something else.</p>
<p>I've loved my education and career but there were many things along the way I didn't like about both. I especially didn't like living in NYC. But it was worth it for a long time and I had three kids to bring up and the schools were amazing. But now I get to switch careers and move to my dream town in CA. Life isn't ever perfect, but you can make it damn good.</p>
<p>Japher, PM me your info and I'm happy to give you my thoughts.</p>
<p>Fair enough. </p>
<p>Its just that every time I have read one of your posts it gives advice that always leads to one solution, e.g., go to Harvard, Penn, Stanford, etc While I do realize that going to one of these schools opens a world of doors for you, it is simply not the only solution. The incentives in society today are skewed. I realize that this isnt your fault, but by consistently stating and reinforcing these incentives to future generations only compounds the current problem. Obviously, dangling the green carrot in front of a young person is going to pursued them in one way or another, and usually not in the best interest of society as a whole. Discouraging our youth from pursuing careers/degrees in engineering because the coursework is harder, and the monetary rewards are not great, is a detriment to America and to the global society at large. We do not need any more lawyers or bankers. What we need is for more bright young people to go into engineering. </p>
<p>I do not have immunity in this argument. I am an engineering student, and I will admit that it is my plan to go to a top B-school program down the road. However, when I do eventually make it to the executive lifestyle, I will not forget what I have been saying and thinking today. I plan on providing greater incentives to my employees who are in technical fields, and not making a name brand b-school a requirement for promotion. However, like you so frequently state, I will have to play the sick game in order to change anything.</p>
<p>For me, it just seems like people who are willing to sacrifice 100+ hour work weeks for money have their priorities screwed up. Yet, society perpetuates this problem by constantly providing the incentives to do so. Perhaps, if the incentives were for sound reasoning and risk management, we wouldnt be in the boat we are today. Instead, the incentives are to turn a profit no matter the cost. Banks are still hiring IVY grads for 100K right out of school when they are(should be) bankrupted from the current IVY managements decisions, obviously, this is not doing anyone any good. I realize that this isnt going to change in the near future, but at least try not to exacerbate the problem by funneling more young minds down the same old beaten path. Instead, encourage them to do the best they can for the country and for society while realizing that that isnt sending them off to be a Wall Street drone.</p>
<p>Purdue, I hate to break it to you, but unless you start your own company, you are probably not going to change much in terms of who gets hired. You would hardly be the first to try. Ben and Jerry are my favorite example, they were determined not to pay a CEO more than 7 times the lowest salaried worker. Company got in trouble, no CEO wanted the job for that pay and their well meant plans went out the window.</p>
<p>I only respond here when I know the answer to what someone is asking. I'm not encouraging anyone here to do anything. The world doesn't need anymore bankers and consultants and that's a message my kids grew up with. It worked on one but alas the other 2 are probably also headed for MBAs. Banks won't stop hiring the ivy kids. Most of all because ivy kids are no longer just connected wealthy kids, the schools have done a fair job of bringing the best and brightest from every corner. There are many of the best elsewhere, but the majority will continue to be found at ivies because it's one stop shopping.</p>
<p>My kids grew up understand people could be honorable and giving in any profession and that life involves much more than where you got to work in the morning. Their father, a management consultant, is an expert in corporate ethics.</p>
<p>And banks should not be bankrupt because some individuals and groups within them were among many who caused problems. The majority were doing a good job all along. The banks were bailed out to aid credit markets, not t keep bankers employed. A full 30 percent including those who caused major problems are gone from all.</p>
<p>As you grow older you'll understand more about what really contributes to society and determine how you want to contribute though I'll bet it will be outside of whatever earns your family a living.</p>