Why MBA after engineering?

<p>This was the same point that I implied earlier in this thread, assuming that the country’s smartest people choose to take the path that leads to the highest salary is completely false. Most of the truly intelligent people I have met in my life hold careers that are secure and far from flamboyant. It goes back to my argument that the incentives are skewed in society. Banks and so forth assume, incorrectly I might add, that they will attract the best and brightest by offering these high salaries. However, what they do is attract people of generally low moral standards and questionable priorities, namely, people who are motivated primarily by money. Let’s face it, who else is going to work 100+ hour work weeks?! It comes close to voluntary slavery(an oxymoron, I know), and why else would you do that if not for the money! A better idea would be to try to attract people to the industry by changing the work environment into a more humane setting. If you look at all of the financial markets in the world right now, who is left standing? Primarily only one country, Canada, why? Because banking in Canada doesn’t offer this widely varying salary that promotes the greedy of the country to flock to one industry. The incentives are for risk management, and sound reasoning. I love America, I love the free market system, and I love the competitive nature of America; but, I question the economic arguments that get thrown around all too often in our textbooks, that people always act in accordance with wages. On this thread alone it has been mentioned numerous times, that the smartest people go where the money is, but in my opinion, the smartest people in life recognize that there is more to life than money. </p>

<p>I know that this doesn’t necessarily relate all that much to the current argument, but it clearly brought this reaction to my mind lol…</p>

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the smartest people in life recognize that there is more to life than money.

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<p>I can't agree with this more. My feeling is that all the banking/finance companies get by offering the biggest salary is getting the best of the best that live their life for money.</p>

<p>Wow Purdue, you just don't know of what you speak.</p>

<p>There are many, many people attracted to banks for the truly fascinating work they offer. Have you ever been in one or considered the amazing range of what is done within one?</p>

<p>Separately, it is not amoral or unethical to want to make a good living for yourself and your family. Money is not evil. Aspiring to nice homes or anything else is fair game and lots and lots of ethical people enjoy the finer things in life.</p>

<p>And yeah, who wants to work those long weeks, traveling the world, meeting the people making things happen in business around the globe and participating in deals that change the face of the world? Watching Asia and Eastern Europe emerge has just bored me silly. Being part of bringing technology to you was all in another boring 100 hour week and I was just there for the $$.</p>

<p>Well, for starters, all the top students who flood the banks with resumes, former politicians from around the globe, the lawyers involved in deals who want to make the jump because the banking functions are so much more interesting, Canadian bankers from Bay Street who want to play in the major leagues, engineers who no longer want to be functional engineers because they want more...........and so many others as to make these among the most elite jobs one can have. Right after this I'll turn my attention to the heaps of PMs I get asking for advice on how to become one.</p>

<p>It's great that you want to be an engineer Purdue. This Country desperately needs more engineers and we already have many, many more people who want to be bankers and consultants than can ever become one.</p>

<p>How long has your life been thus far and how many truly brilliant shakers have you met to date? Enough to know that bankers are money grubbing slaves with no morals? That's just plain ignorant Purdue.</p>

<p>Again, age will give you perspective as will getting out in the world and actually meeting and working with the people of whom you so erroneously and naively speak.</p>

<p>Hmom</p>

<p>I realize that this does not apply to every single banker in the country, so if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it. </p>

<p>Here’s my point:
These banks assume that they can buy your life from you. Right out of school they expect you to hit the street sacrificing your time, your relationships, and every other known thing that one might have previously enjoyed. What they don’t anticipate is that some people cannot be bought. I can’t stress this enough, there are other people like me out there, who would not, no matter how much I enjoyed the work and no matter how high the wages and promises are, sacrifice 95+% of my waking hours to my place of employment. In return for this, they offer a slightly above average salary to begin, with the promise that if you work hard enough and sacrifice a great deal, you can make the mega bucks. I completely agree that there is nothing wrong with wanting to be financially well off to support a family, but that is not what we are talking about here. We are not, in many cases, speaking of people who have dreams to be one big happy family. How the heck, if I might ask, would one expect to spend any time with their family in the first place when you work 100+ hours a week? And, in case you are going to tell me about the voluntary vacation time that you are expected not to ever take, go ahead and argue a moot point. </p>

<p>Sure, I am young, a dreamer and an idealist. How many ‘brilliant shakers’ have I met? I really don’t know, I have a feeling that my opinion of intelligence is going to vary greatly with yours, so I think that we would be comparing apples and oranges so to speak. However, maybe you are right. Maybe, some day I will find that the world really is as you say, and realize how young and na</p>

<p>On a side note:
Your whole argument that lawyers, politicians, top students, engineers, etc. try to get into banking only serves a point to my argument. Why? Why do all of these people flock to banking. Is it because they are all so interested in the kind of work that’s done? No, I would be willing to bet that most of them don’t even know what a banker does. Take out the glitz and glam from banking, what are you left with? Not much really. The whole reason that people are attracted to the profession is because of the lifestyle it affords. Just the mere mention of lawyers and politicians coming over is laughable. No doubt, the engineers you get are not coming because they genuinely want to be a banker instead of an engineer, no, the reason is because they believe that they are not being compensated appropriately for their skills and are willing to do anything(within reason) to garner a higher wage. In other words, they are all people who are motivated primarily by money. If engineering would have a salary similar to that of banking now, you can be sure that all of the people who claim they love banking for the actual work and not the lifestyle, would be tripping over themselves trying to get into engineering. </p>

<p>Again, change the incentives and you’ll get a different kind of people.</p>

<p>There are already people in engineering who are in it primarily for the money. The salaries are still higher than for most professions, so it does attract some people who are not genuinely interested in engineering.</p>

<p>Purdue, people line up to get the opportunity to work those long hours. I'm certain they all have different reasons, but let's just assume money is one of them. I've certainly enjoyed the financial rewards of the work.</p>

<p>I've been able to send my 3 kids to the the finest schools on the planet from the day they were born. They have had educations most could not imagine. Classes of under 10 where the teachers really developed their skills with them. When high school rolled around and my oldest finished calc freshmen year, there was linear algebra, mv calc and teachers to work with him one on one to any level appropriate. My DD, into languages, was taught by natives in seminars with 2 or 3 kids. They were all fluent in several languages by middle school. The best summer programs developed their skill sets and interests and thinking. When the studied ancient Greece, the whole class went to see the ruins. Their educations were so different than the public school experiences DH and I had, we cried with joy at seeing their love of learning in the environments we were so fortunate to be able to give them. And they are free to do whatever they want in their careers, we will pay to educate our grand children in the same way if they are not able. We also been able to help pay for the education of our siblings' children.</p>

<p>As a family we've traveled the world. I love dropping down in the Amazon or on a South Pacific island. There is nothing more fun to my family than experiencing a new culture. My kids have visited every continent. They will never be afraid to hop on a plane when opportunity calls.</p>

<p>DH and I love art and music . We've heard all the world's great symphonies and participate in many aspects of the art community. We love food and have eaten at the world's great restaurants and I've indulged my passion for cooking by getting lessons from great chefs all over the world.</p>

<p>We have a huge interest in education and have been deeply involved with NYC school children and getting underprivileged kids into top colleges for 3 decades. We have been able to give a great deal of time and money to this cause and several others. My firm, for 4 years, paid me to do pro bono work half time for a foundation.</p>

<p>Our work has afforded us an ocean retreat where we've built priceless memories of weekends and holidays on the ocean as a family. After a long week heading out there I think how fortunate we are. Work that never fails to stimulate me and play I could never have dreamed of as a child.</p>

<p>Work often conflicted with other parts of life. For eight years I dropped back to part-time to spend time with my kids. They often accompanied me on long business trips. I was often exhausted from all the responsibilities. But I loved every last week of the mind blowingly interesting work I did.</p>

<p>I'm sure many will read this ad the flames will start. Elitist! Money grubber!! That women should have stayed home, what kind of mother does that? What a spoiled, shallow life!!! Money doesn't make you happy you know! Glad my kid doesn't go to school with those little snobs those people raise. I've heard the rants since 1982 when I started my first banking job and I'll hear them until I die.</p>

<p>But I'm glad I chose what I did. This is a dream life for me and I humbly appreciate that a middle class girl from a small CA town can do this in America.</p>

<p>My peers who chose less work focused lives enjoyed a different set of privileges and it was their life to choose. </p>

<p>But again, to say there is something inherently wrong about choosing this life and work is just ignorant and the self righteous musings of the uninformed.</p>

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There are already people in engineering who are in it primarily for the money. The salaries are still higher than for most professions, so it does attract some people who are not genuinely interested in engineering.

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Bulls eye... I, for one, am not crazy about engineering, but is in engineering b/c of higher starting salary compared to business majors.</p>

<p>However, since engineers hit the salary ceiling pretty fast, I do see the more experienced ones switching from engineering to banking after they get their MBAs. They (as do I) feel that engineers are not compensated enough...</p>

<p>Purdue -- you're sounding kind of bitter. I'm not a banker, but it seems everything comes back to money, and understanding how that works is fascinating. Equally interesting and important are the newest engineering developments in clean energy (but you might need hmom's help to transform those brilliant ideas into something real !!) and the growth and development of a child's brain -- just don't expect those fields to pay as well. Fortunately, there are really intelligent people in every field of endeavor, and they're happy and content to do what they love and get paid what they do or they're happy to play the necessary games to make more $$. Either way it's their choice and they're happy with it. They are not intelligent if they think that aceing differential equations and p-chem somehow makes them better or entitles them to more money than, say, Brittany Spears or that econ major who seems to be having more fun at school than they are. Peace.</p>

<p>I really would rather not argue my point anymore. I don’t think I'm bitter, as someone has posted here. I just have my opinions, as anyone else does. Perhaps, you could say I am passionate. Nor do I want to attack you personally, you may very well be a kind hearted person who just happened to enjoy life in a way that .000000000001% of the population ever will, and I don’t hate you for that. However, I feel that my point is and was valid. I guess when it all boils down to it, money doesn’t motivate me in the way it does many others. You implied in an earlier post that I will likely fail in my attempts to change the wages of technical employees in my firm in the future. Right there is a prime example of the kind of thing that motivates me, changing the world for the better. I won’t ever loose sleep over not eating at the world’s finest restaurants, or vacationing in paradise. What I will loose sleep over is if I lie on my death bed knowing that I never left a mark on humanity. Knowing that 100 or 200 years after I die the world will forget I was ever here. I refuse to let that happen and so I guess you can say that that is what motivates me in the morning. You can call me self righteous, I could call you similar names, but let’s not. I’ll make my own choices and lie in the bed I make, you will do the same…</p>

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You implied in an earlier post that I will likely fail in my attempts to change the wages of technical employees in my firm in the future. Right there is a prime example of the kind of thing that motivates me, changing the world for the better.

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Back in the olllldddd days, the society probably regarded engineers more highly than bankers. Although I think those days are long gone, I wish you luck anyhow.</p>

<p>Follow you're heart Purdue, change the world. Just do it without hate and self righteous judgement, because people shut down when you attempt it that way. </p>

<p>I hope your generation does change the world.</p>

<p>^^^from my post above... "lose"... "lose"** not loose lol</p>

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You're claiming that a smart person would seek a career with a more highly variable wage because that person has a higher potential to succeed. This argument fails on two points. First, let's assume that this argument is true, and that a smart worker pursues the more variable job because of the higher upper bound on the distribution. If this is the case, then it would be optimal for all smart workers to seek the more variable job and low workers to seek the less variable. As a result, the smart worker is now competition with only smart workers in the higher position, leading to increased competition. This means his expected profit with the more variable job is not increased by being smart. Meanwhile, the less variable job is full of not-smart workers, meaning he has an increased likelihood of reaching the upper bound in that distribution (he can be the big fish in the small pond). So as long as the distributions have reasonable overlap (and they do, in practice), there is incentive to deviate and no pure strategy Nash equilibrium forms, which is counter to your claim.

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<p>Actually, it is your logic that completely fails, for you are making the strong presumption that everybody is completely rational, yet that fact has been mercilessly debunked by an entire library's worth of papers in the last 30 years. The fact is, not only do people not behave rationally, not only do people also not expect others to behave rationally either, and furthermore, people don't even properly factor in responses of any kind (whether rational or not) to initial moves . Academics such as Daniel Kahneman and Vernon Smith have won Nobel Prizes for demonstrating that people's real-world behavior strongly deviates from rationality, and in fact, the entire fields of experimental and behavioral economics have been devised in order to study real-world behavior. </p>

<p>To give you just a hint of the literature, Taylor & Brown (1988) showed that people are overconfident about their own abilities relative to others and also about their own futures. Svenson (1981) showed that the vast majority of people say that they are above average on a wide variety of common skills such as driving a car, even though obviously, by definition, only half of them can be above average. Overconfidence levels are also strongly affected by not only whether the payoff is affected by their own (perceived) ability, but also whether they can choose to self-select to participate, regardless of the fact that others who participate have self-selected also. To quote Camerer & Lovallo (1999):</p>

<p>* "...when subjects' post-entry payoffs are based on their own abilities, individuals tend to over- estimate their chances of relative success and enter more frequently (compared to a condi- tion in which payoffs do not depend on skill). The more surprising finding is that overconfidence is even stronger when subjects self- select into the experimental sessions, knowing their success will depend partly on their skill (and that others have self-selected too)"</p>

<p>Joe Roth, chairman of Walt Disney Studios, when he was asked why so many expensive big-budget movies are re- leased on the same weekends (such as Me- morial Day and Independence Day). Roth replied: Hubris. Hubris. If you only think about your own business, you think, "I've got a good story department, I've got a good marketing department, we're going to go out and do this." And you don't think that everybody else is thinking the same way. In a given weekend in a year you'll have five movies open, and there's certainly not enough people to go around. (Emphasis ours)*</p>

<p>Similarly, Radzevick and Moore (2008) found that "people are more confident when their own side is strong, regardless of how strong the competition is" and that "people neglect to make adequate consideration of the competition". Ball, Bazerman, and Carroll (1991) and Bazerman & Carroll (1987) found that people continually and consistently fail to consider competitive responses to their own first moves. </p>

<p>The bottom line is that game theory is inapplicable here for the simple reason that game theory is not scientific. Sorry to break it to you, but it isn't. Game theory is a mathematical tool and a philosophy that perhaps describes how people should behave, but not how they actually do behave. I don't think any game theorist - even John Nash himself - has ever seriously claimed to be describing real-world behavior. </p>

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The second issue with your argument comes from looking at it as an adverse selection problem. You're claiming that an agent with lower disutility for effort (i.e. a smart agent) will take the more variable job with the higher upper bound. However, if the smart agent is risk adverse (which is very highly likely - prospect theory), then he very well would favor the less variable position. An easy example to show would be an infinitely risk adverse agent with the set of potential realizations from the low variable wage a subset of the potential realizations from the high variable wage.

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<p>Again, see the literature above. The behavioralists have demonstrated a strong connection between (perceived) ability and overconfidence, which means that prospect theory does not apply. Prospect theory has to do with the differential weighing of potential gains and losses, yet overconfident people don't really care about losses because they think they are going to win. </p>

<p>So, like I said, quality (or at least perceived quality) will tend to segregate based on the variability of outcomes. In this case, the perceptions of quality are not entirely unwarranted, because they are based on a true signal: those who can get into a top school like MIT or Stanford really do have good reason indeed to believe that they are probably more qualified than somebody who can only get into some average state school.</p>

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This was the same point that I implied earlier in this thread, assuming that the country’s smartest people choose to take the path that leads to the highest salary is completely false.

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<p>Nobody is trying to argue that smart people always choose the paths with the highest salaries, nor should they. Obviously there are many objectives in life, of which money is only one. What I am saying is that - everything else held constant - people will obviously tend to choose the careers that will bring them the most money.</p>

<p>However, it is clearly true that you can't actually hold everything else constant. Social status also varies from job to job, and in many cases, actually correlates positively with the salaries, especially in the cases of - since this was a focus of discussion - investment banking and other finance jobs. I don't know about you guys, but I strongly remember my undergrad years when investment banking was considered the "cool" job and how engineering was considered a geeky, dirty job for those who simply weren't 'good enough' to get an Ibanking job (and my school had a top-ranked engineering program). Ibankers were being paid in the 'currency of prestige' (in addition to 'actual currency'), and this currency could be used not only to earn respect amongst your friends, but also to enhance your resume. Goldman Sachs is (or at least was) considered to be a more useful brand name to have on your resume than any engineering company at the time. </p>

<p>I have said on other threads that one way to entice more people to study engineering is to simply pay engineers more. But another way is to make engineering seem 'cool'. Show that engineers get to build interesting technologies. </p>

<p>I'll give you an example of 'coolness'. Being a Navy SEAL or other Special Forces is seen as 'cool'. So is being a fighter pilot or a submarine captain. They're 'cool' even though I think we all know that none of those jobs really pays very well. Nobody takes that jobs to get rich. Being a Navy SEAL doesn't really pay you that much better than just being a regular Navy seaman. I'm sure that most engineers are getting paid better than almost any SEAL. But it's 'cool'. You want into a gathering and say that you're an engineer, and nobody really cares. You do the same as a Navy SEAL and everybody smiles. People make video games about Navy SEALS. Nobody makes video games about engineers. {In factt, it is engineers themselves who make video games about SEALS, but SEALS don't make games about engineers.} </p>

<p>More to the point, other countries have created cultural systems that value engineers more. Engineers are held in great social esteem in Germany, and in fact, much of (continental) Europe. The same is true in Asia: much of the leadership in China consists of engineers. But in the United States, not so much. </p>

<p>Don't get me wrong. I still think that engineering is one of the better career paths available. {Let's face it: there are a lot of mediocre jobs out there. Engineering, if nothing else, at least is better than them.} In particular, engineering is a stellar choice for the average person. The problem is that engineering has difficulty attracting the very best students. Even at MIT, something like 25% of the engineering graduates took jobs in finance, and I'm sure more would have, but just didn't get offers.</p>

<p>the finance bubble has burst. top students will shift their interests back to top corporate F500 training programs as before the bond market explosion of the 1980s. hell, even in the 1990s there wasn't this ridiculously irrational obsession with 'investment banking'. you can thank irrationality for irrationality - subprime over extension for student obsession.</p>

<p>But back to the OP... something like 30-40% of the classes at the top MBA programs majored in engineering at the ugrad level. obviously places like stern and wharton have fewer engineers b/c they are more finance focused, but mit and stanford take a high number of engineers. these engineers are coming off of a huge number of different industries/jobs, and will be leaving after the MBA to a wide range of industries/jobs. It's safe to say that either or both of 1) engineering prepares people well for a large number of things, 2) students that select engineering are inherently capable of lots of different things.</p>

<p>I'm finishing up ECE/Econ at Duke and will pursue an MBA in about 5 years (most likely). Almost across the board, the students in my ECE classes are more impressive and knowledgeable about the discipline than the Econ majors. Econ majors know very little about economics and don't give a **** about economics - they just care about money. Fitting, because a huge number of them end up in finance - what a great culture fit.</p>

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you can thank irrationality for irrationality - subprime over extension for student obsession.

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<p>Actually (sadly), the system was entirely rational for the individual participants, subject to their cognitive biases. After all, why take an engineering job and make $50k when, during the boom years, you will make 3 or 4x that as an Ibanking analyst (or at least think you will because of overconfidence)? In fact, the entire financial apparatus was acting according to rational incentives, at least at the micro level. Bankers made big bets. If they're right, they pocket huge bonuses. If they're wrong, oh well, they lost somebody else's money (but not their own). If they really bet wrongly, they jeopardize their own bank's solvency and may even necessitate a taxpayer bailout. But, again, it's not their money, so what do they care? Given that they had no personal stake in the losses, coupled with overconfidence biases, it was sadly inevitable for them to ramp up the risks. They privatized the gains and socialized the losses. </p>

<p>The problem is not so much that people were behaving irrationally given the incentives, but rather that the incentives themselves were misaligned. Bankers had no reason to care about the long-term health of their employer, so the answer is to then make them care, by paying bonuses not in cash but in the form of restricted stock that vests over an extended time period. Hence, all of the Lehman traders who brought down their own company would have effectively lost all their bonus compensation over the last few years - and rightfully so. Clawback provisions should have been implemented to reduce bonuses attached to trades that seemed profitable at the time but later turned out not to be so. Interest rates for internal bank treasury funds that served to implement trades need to reflect the true risk of those trades (although that does leave the open question as to how you can actually know that true risk in the first place). </p>

<p>But engineering incentives need to change too, as right now, no strong incentive really exists to being a star engineer. If you do top-notch work, you design excellent products, you make the production lines run smooth as silk, and sure, you might eventually be promoted to a 'senior' engineering position, but you're still not making that much more than the mediocre engineer at the same company. With the important exception of software firms, most companies rarely have even the best and most experienced engineers making much more than 2x of the lowest-paid engineers. That's not strong motivation for the most talented people to become engineers, but is strong motivation for mediocre people to become engineers.</p>

<p>However, that's different from saying that the most talented people don't choose to study engineering. I agree with bsbllallstr8 in that an engineering curriculum prepares you to do many different things. But in the last 6 years or so, we have witnessed a strong exodus of the best engineering graduates away from engineering jobs and towards jobs in finance and consulting. Again, notice how many engineering graduates from MIT - the most prestigious engineering school in the world - chose not to take jobs in engineering. The way to remedy that is for engineering firms to provide better incentives for the top candidates.</p>

<p>Isn't medicine the ideal way to get a low-risk high-paying career out of being good at science? I've gotten the impression that once you're in med school, you're set.</p>

<p>Have you read today's newspaper headlines? Most doctors already have declining salaries and we're quickly moving towards socialized medicine.</p>