Why not Dartmouth University?

Colleges & Universities A-Z Dartmouth College
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<p>You are certainly correct in thinking that no one in this forum has suggested that there is anything wrong with any other Ivies. If they have I haven't seen it. </p>

<p>Nor have I noticed Dartmouth students (or hopefuls) posting their advise on any of the other Ivy forums. As you say, each school has its . . . own culture. Every school demonstrate a great many things which schould be of concern to themselves.
It seems more a preoccupation of certain others--filled with certainty--who feel the need to instruct Dartmouth on what should concern it. I'm sure we are all warmed and charmed by their concern.</p>

<p>The issue, rather, has to do with the character of devoted research-schools vs liberal arts styled schools. People pick Dartmouth because it is what it is, not because they hope to reform it based on what it is not. It's like marrying someone for what you want them to be rather than what they are, or to extend the metaphor to non-Dartmouth people, wanting the spouse of a friend (or brother) to be other than what they are according to your expert analysis rather than by their own desires and dreams. </p>

<p>I'm sure you are a nice person. I mean no insult in saying that most people on this forum will not be swayed into thinking that Dartmouth, afted 200 odd years of successful stewardship, now needs to be instructed and reformed by anyone posting on cc. It is niether the forum nor the time for such serious analysis.</p>

<p>I understand you graduated from Brown--you should be proud of that and I'm sure you are, I would be. I hope to do the same at Dartmouth, because it is what I want, not because its better than Brown. I'm sure your brother's choice was for the same reason, not because he thought Dartmouth was better than Brown but because he desired it and maybe for no other reason than that he desired it. We don't always require a reason to love what we love; although, there are many reasons to dislike what we don't want.</p>

<p>keeping it real</p>

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<p>in "keeping it real" you are merely repeating the point that dartmouth is what it is and you are implying that i have less right than you to post on this forum because i graduated from a different university. oh, and you are randomly lapsing into elizabethan english in all but the last post for reasons i have yet to comprehend. </p>

<p>you should be aware that the ideas i am putting forth are not my own. i am merely explaining the intentions behind a plan that President Wright has already launched. would you ban him from this forum for talking about what your future alma mater should do to improve and succeed in the future? all universities are constantly evolving, constantly seeking ways to improve. to not acknowledge this, is to be complacent and pedantic. anyone who has ever served on a governing body at a university understands this.</p>

<p>speaking of which, (for your information) i have spent three years serving on the ivy council with representatives from the other seven schools, working on issues that effect the way our schools are run. i'm willing to bet that i have a more detailed working knowledge of the "campaign for the dartmouth experience" than you do. having spent a lot of time on the dartmouth campus, i probably have a better feel for the dartmouth culture than you do. </p>

<p>you're welcome to disagree with me, but please do so without the haughty sarcasm. not only are you unjustified in directing it at me, but it poorly represents what i've generally found to be the most congenial student body in the ivy league.</p>

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<p>President Wright actually has a right to talk about this and suggest and bring about reform. You don't.</p>

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<p>there, there xanatos.</p>

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<p>dcircle,
I seem to have hurt your feelings, I sincerely apologize for that, I'm sure all would agree that your welcome to be on this forum, and I never have said, nor would I say, otherwise.</p>

<p>I'm sure that you know a great many things I don't know. I'm very impressed by the responsibilities you've assumed in the Ivy league and your Brown diploma. I only hope to do the same, with some luck, at Dartmouth. I'm a high school senior--what could I possibly know about all these great educational issues?
Nonetheless, I know that many current and former Dartmouth students disagree with you, in fact every Dartmouth student who has posted on this issue seems to be wrong on this issue if you are right. I feel I'm in good company and I am thankful for it.</p>

<p>You said:
" i'm willing to bet that i have a more detailed working knowledge of the "campaign for the dartmouth experience" than you do. having spent a lot of time on the dartmouth campus, i probably have a better feel for the dartmouth culture than you do."</p>

<p>I agree, you know more than I do. What can I say?</p>

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<p>thanks, that's pretty magnanimous of you.
i assure you that you're more fixated on my brown diploma than i am, but hey, if it impresses you i'll take the compliment.
i'm also not sure about the company you consider yourself to be in since it doesn't include President Wright nor the horde of dartmouth students you seem to think it does (unless you and xanatos together represent dartmouth which i think most would hope isn't the case)
but thanks all the same.
best of luck to you at dartmouth and perhaps i'll see you around some time!</p>

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<p>"(unless you and xanatos together represent dartmouth which i think most would hope isn't the case)"</p>

<p>With you, I also hope this isn't the case, but then I know it isn't. Just from recent postings I would have to defer to Kelsey08, Cinderely, AthenaNY, Raspberrysmoothie, Dartmyth, Willywonka, Themindofayn, (Xanatos) and others who have influenced my opinion on this subject.
I'm sure there are many and differing views amongst Dartmouth students on the future of Dartmouth. The only thing I know for sure is people vote with their feet. Everyone attending Dartmouth likely chose it for what it is, not for what others might want it to be, no matter how well intentioned. Research schools exist, they are in the majority.</p>

<p>However, I'm glad that I have been exposed to the opinion you hold on the issue. As I recall a poster named California1600 held similar views on the Dartmouth forum:</p>

<pre><code> "Right now, the lower Ivy League are taking steroids, altering true competition and talent, with students asking " whats the easiest ivy to get into?".

</code></pre>

<p>He felt research was the hallmark of an undergraduate school and that Dartmouth was an Ivy league school only inasmuch as it played football against Harvard, Princeton and Yale. What do I know? Maybe your combined critiques are correct.
But something tells me they're not.</p>

<p>Respect,</p>

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<p>incorrect sir.
this is primarily a conversation between me and your ego, and hardly about the issues at hand. it's pretty big of you to claim the opinions of people who posted weeks ago about an entirely different conversation--the naming of the school. </p>

<p>frankly, i don't think a lot of those people's opinions are as extreme as yours--
that dartmouth does not have a role to play in contributing new knowledge to the world,
that undergrads won't benefit from increased research opportunities</p>

<p>to the contrary, many people at dartmouth are proud of the research that already exists and delighted with the historically important breakthroughs that have come out of dartmouth (such as BASIC and the definitive work of Mike Gazzaniga)</p>

<p>unlike you, most people at dartmouth (including President Wright) see the link between research and undergrad opportunities and the ability to balance the graduate and undergraduate programs in a uniquely dartmouth way.</p>

<p>lastly, i think you lose a lot of credibility when you attempt to combine my views with those of california1600. you're stooping pretty low in your attempt to malign me.</p>

<p>i know you won't be able to help responding to this (the whole ego thing), so i would appreciate it if you actually took up an intelligent debate about the issues rather than insidiously attacking my character</p>

<p>p.s.
debating the issue at hand would be completing the following sentences</p>

<p>increased research does not help undergrads because ---
dartmouth does not need to produce new knowledge for the world because ---</p>

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<p>I don't think anyone is saying that research and producing knowledge for the world aren't good things...but you make it sound like Dartmouth doesn't have any research to speak of. That's simply not the case, which I elaborated on in the previous page. My question is--what's the urgency to increase the grad programs when Dartmouth already has such great research opportunities? Where's the fire? It's inevitable that Dartmouth will change and grow over time, as it has grown and changed since its founding. But that growth shouldn't be rushed. I also agree that it's possible for the grad programs to be increased without detracting from the undergraduate focus--but it's also possible that they will detract. It depends on what specifically is done, how thoughtfully it is done, and over what period of time. I think those are the things we should be spending time debating about.</p>

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<p>That would be,</p>

<pre><code> "incorrect Ms.," (answers to both of your questions are below)
</code></pre>

<p>If you could please cut and paste my comments that state,</p>

<p>"dartmouth does not have a role to play in contributing new knowledge to the world,
that undergrads won't benefit from increased research opportunities"
or at least something that resembles it. </p>

<p>You apparently like controversey. That's why you're on this forum ad nauseum.
I am not on the Brown forum, because I'm interested in Dartmouth.
You cannot honestly think that anyone on the Dartmouth site thinks that your are a Dartmouth Booster. Please!
When you are not condescendingly kind you are outright critical. You toss in a few kind bromides amongst your ridicule and think that we are so dumb that we won't get your better-than-thou attitude? Ego?</p>

<p>A couple questions for you:
Are you worried about the state of any other Ivies?
Which ones and where will I find the threads?</p>

<p>Moreover,</p>

<p>"to balance the graduate and undergraduate programs in a uniquely dartmouth way" is what I assumed Dartmouth was doing and will do without your demand that they do so. Or, do you assume that this is something Dartmouth has only come around to doing because of your farseeing advise in the "Ivy League Council". Ego? Thank god for You, eh.
If you're saying it's something they need to do and they're doing it, it seems rather redundant to say so. If Dartmouth does not "balance the graduate and undergraduate programs in a uniquely dartmouth way" who does?</p>

<p>I agree that it would be unfair to compare your posts to Cal1600's post and that was not my intention, perhaps that was a clumsy comparison. My point is that it has only been the two of you, on this forum, that have been so constantly critical of Dartmouth while having no real vested interest in it (your brother, to my mind,doesn't count as I would I assume he would speak for himself). Although I realize you believe you're looking out for us. Ego?</p>

<p>As to my fellow posters, I'll let them weigh in as they see fit. My impression was that they felt Dartmouth has always done a fine job at deciding what Dartmouth will be and that there is no crisis, or problem that needs fixing.
So as not to be shrill, I have to say that I went back to look at some of your posts on the Brown forum and they seemed genuinely helpfull. I was suprised. No critiques of the school at all. Only encouragement and inspiration--not to mention coming to Brown's defense when criticism was levelled. That seems reasonable to me, how about you?
Are you amazed that Dartmouth students are not really interested in hearing people from other schools telling them that their school is inadequate? If so, you don't seem to have learned much about people while attending Brown, I'm a seventeen year old girl who's only lived in this country for 5 years and I know that.</p>

<p>I defy you to show me any postings of Dartmouth students critiquing Brown, or any other Ivy---that's good civilized behavior, no matter where your from.</p>

<p>As to your last two questions:</p>

<ol>
<li>Dartmouth has research opportunities and (as far as I know) will adjust them in the "Dartmouth way" as it sees fit, as it always has (perhaps not perfectly).</li>
<li>Dartmouth needs to produce knowledge in the students it has agreed to produce it in, beyond that I must confess that I'm out of my element, how about you?</li>
</ol>

<p>Honestly, look at your posts on this forum once more, you are a smart guy, and you'll see that it's not love and kisses. It's more like an all-seeing all-knowing party-popper.</p>

<p>I hope my response was what you hoped for and that I didn't fail in my attempt to answer your questions.
My sin is that I love Dartmouth too much!
Good luck to you at Med school!
I really wish you the best!</p>

<p>Peace</p>

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<p>I don't know why you put my name in parentheses, but I just want to say that the real injustice is that while this is going on, there are people posting in the "Overrated/Underrated?" thread in the general forum claiming Dartmouth is overrated because it's too prestigious without enough research coming out. So which is it, people, is it too prestigious and not enough research or is it not prestigious enough because of not enough research? You can't have it both ways.</p>

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<p>Xanatos,</p>

<p>I put your name in Parentheses because dcircle had indited you along with me in his post. I thought you were already implied but I wanted to include you also.</p>

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<p>Xanatos</p>

<p>where is the general forum? I'm curious.</p>

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<p>alright FountainSiren, let's start afresh =) </p>

<p>part of the reason why i'm advocating for these things on the dartmouth forum is that brown is in the exact same debacle and i see a lot of similarities between the "campaign for the dartmouth experience" and "the plan for academic enrichment" at brown. both schools are in the initial phase of launching capital campaigns of the exact same magnitude ($1.3 billion) with many of the same goals.</p>

<p>i firmly believe that growth is necessary, but i think kesley08 totally hit the nail on the head. the question is how to grow intelligently without compromising the school's character--at brown too, there is a lot of resistance against some of the changes because people are concerned that they will take away from what makes brown brown.</p>

<p>the solution we have come up with at our school is kind of ironic. we have decided to start with enhancements to the programs we are already strong at, rather than trying to build a program from scratch. as a result, most of the new investments are going towards the life sciences and some of our more unique "interdisciplinary" centers in the humanities (like egyptology and old world archeology). that way, at least in our mind, we are preserving what gives us our character. and i guess rapid growth in these areas is easier for us to stomach. by contrast, a program in business (for example) will probably grow much more slowly since we don't have a dedicated business school and don't associate business with brown very much.</p>

<p>do you guys think a strategy like this makes sense for dartmouth as well? if so, which departments would benefit most? or is best to start at the "weakest" link? </p>

<p>(it is interesting that harvard is taking the latter approach and directing a lot of its capital investments toward establishing an engineering school)</p>

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<p>dcircle,</p>

<p>Thanks for asking.
But to answer your question, I really don't know. I was serious when I said I'm sure you know more about these things than I do.
My interest is only in Dartmouth being similar to the school I imagined it to be over the last couple years as I searched for the place I could go and learn from those who know what I want to know and at the same time have a passionate desire to comunicate that knowledge to me.
I am convinced Dartmouth is that school.
My second choice was a LAC, which may explain why I do not want Dartmouth to lose its teaching character while it continues developing its research capabilities.</p>

<p>Thanks alot for your sensible post,
good luck with Brown.</p>

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<p>FountainSiren - here is the thread that I was referring to: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=20775%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=20775&lt;/a>
It's under College Search and Selection, which is kinda like the "general" section of this forum.</p>

<p>I was just wondering why you put me in parentheses, no hard feelings or anything.</p>

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<p>Thanks Xanatos. </p>

<p>(FountainSiren)</p>

<p>lol!</p>