Why should I choose Cal?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
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I really want to attend Cal, but I'm afraid I won't cut it grade wise, considering the crazy competitiveness there. Any words of advice?

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<p>I worried about the same thing. But as I see it, that's something that comes with every prestigious university and I've come to terms with that. Cal is a top notch school, which in turn attracts top notch students. Being accepted means that the school has faith in you, so do the same. </p>

<p>Also, one of my teachers told me that if you're a good student, then you can shine at a mediocre university. But if you're a mediocre student, then the name of a prestigious university might help you out. I don't know how valid this is, but it makes sense. </p>

<p>For me, I would rather rough it among some of the brightest students in the nation rather than go to an "easier" school just to have the illusion of being one of the best.</p>

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True, but in my situation, debating between a local state school and Cal, that was a major plus. I wanted to show a complete picture of Cal, which offers all the benefits of a top school and more.

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If you're comparing Cal to a local state university, then definitely go to Cal. I thought you were comparing Cal with some other prestigious university (like Stanford, Princeton, or UCLA).</p>

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<p>@killthefifi</p>

<p>1,2,3,4) I've lived in the SF Bay Area my entire life - 4 years on the peninsula, from age 5 to the present in Albany, which is practically Berkeley - so it's really nothing new or special to me. I even go to downtown Berkeley (and sometimes the campus) and SF on weekends already. I guess how exciting a place is really depends on one's opinion...</p>

<p>5) Private colleges are offering me practically the same price. So disregarding tuition... what makes Cal stand out?</p>

<p>7) I heard the school is not undergraduate-friendly from people who go there.</p>

<p>18) Almost every school I've researched has some streaking tradition</p>

<p>What other places were you accepted to and why were they less appealing, disregarding what the bay area has to offer since I'm more than familiar with that already?</p>

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6) The prestige. Cal is the Harvard of the west AND it beats many of Harvard’s programs. (Don’t give me crap that stanfurd is, because remember, who came first? If they’re lucky, they can be Yale)

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<p>I can appreciate your cheerleading for the ol' Blue & Gold, but, come on. Let's cut the BS. Stanford has Berkeley beat on prestige. You know it's true. We all do. I wish it wasn't true, but unfortunately it is true. I believe it's been shown on other threads that Stanford routs Berkeley when it comes to undergrad cross-admits, and in fact wins ~90% of the ug x-admit battles vs. any other school in the entire Pac-10. Put another way, Berkeley's overall yield is only about 40%, which means that a clear majority of ug's who are admitted choose to go elsewhere. </p>

<p>To be fair, Berkeley performs far better when it comes to grad school xadmits. But we're not talking about grad school in this thread. </p>

<p>The fact that Stanford is younger than Berkeley actually speaks to one of Berkeley's weaknesses. Berkeley had a colossal head start...and lost it. For example, in the early 1950's Berkeley's contemporaneous faculty counted 6 Nobel Laureates to Stanford's zero. What's the score today? Berkeley 7, Stanford 16. To paraphrase the Joker from Dark Knight: 'What happened, did Berkeley's cojones drop off?' William & Mary at least can say that they were occupied and burned by the Army of the Potomac during the Civil War, hence explaining their fall from grace. What's Berkeley's excuse?</p>

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Berkeley is the number one public school in the world

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<p>Actually, I'm quite sure that Oxbridge have Berkeley beat, at least when it comes to prestige. </p>

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and the only school with 35/36 of their programs in the top 10.

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<p>Sure...for graduate school. But we're not talking about graduate school here. </p>

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The major political revolution of the 60s started at Berkeley

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<p>Which was one of the major - in fact arguably the major - reason for the subsequent victory by Ronald Reagan in the 1966 California gubernatorial election and the concomitant rise of modern conservatism within the American body politic. Whatever one might think about the politics of Reagan, I think we can all agree that its rise was not what the founders of the Free Speech Movement desired. </p>

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UNIX (the foundation of many modern computers) was created at Berkeley,

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<p>Uh, wrong. Please recheck your history of the computer industry. UNIX was developed in 1969 by a team of engineers led by Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie at AT&T Bell Labs. Thompson and Ritchie both later jointly won both the Turing Award and the National Medal of Technology for their creation of UNIX.</p>

<p>What you are talking about is the Berkeley System Distribution (BSD) variant, which was a set of extensions of UNIX and first launched in 1977 as a feature improvement on top of what was then UNIX version 6 (V6). To be sure, BSD did become an important branch within the UNIX ecosystem, but on cannot make a serious claim that Berkeley created the original UNIX. </p>

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There are countless opportunities for undergraduate research, which would help in the grad school process if you’re interested.

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<p>The obvious counterpoint is that there are also countless students competing with you for those research opportunities, especially the good ones. That's why many Berkeley undergrads end up with research opportunities that are little more than scutwork, where they don't really get to learn anything. </p>

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For instance, I’m a Computer Science major, and the location near Silicon Valley is going to greatly help me in the job-seeking arena.Would those companies want to fly someone out from MIT or hire a local Berkeley grad?

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<p>Actually, yeah, sometimes they do indeed fly people out from MIT rather than hire from Berkeley. This seems to be true of the most selective and elite jobs in Silicon Valley, i.e. the jobs in venture-capital/private-equity. I can think of some people from MIT who were hired directly into VC positions in Silicon Valley. That's a rare feat indeed for somebody coming directly out of Berkeley. </p>

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After you graduate from Berkeley, you’ll find a job. Have you looked at the unemployment rate a year from graduation? For some majors it hovers around 1-2%. Compared to some schools, Berkeley will help get you into a job or grad school. (I’m sure some would disagree, but look at the percent of berkeley graduates who go to grad school v. other peer intuitions) I’ve already talked to one student there, and he said that finding a job should be the least of my worries there.

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<p>Nothing resolves this issue better than poking around the data for yourself, which we can all find here:</p>

<p>Career</a> Center - Career Destination Survey Reports 2006
Career</a> Center - What Can I Do With a Major In..?</p>

<p>I see an English graduate who's reported a job as the head cashier at Barnes & Nobles (hey, at least it was head cashier), and another who ended up as a barista at Starbucks, another is a lumber puller (whatever that is). I also see assorted wait staff and bartenders. Somebody who graduated from Physics took a job as a house painter. But hey, at least they got jobs. I also see a rather high percentage of graduates of most majors who are 'seeking employment' as opposed to actually having a fulltime offer or are heading for graduate school. </p>

<p>So, should getting a job upon graduation be the least of your worries? I suppose if you're fine with ending up working at Starbucks upon graduation, as that one English major did, then maybe it is true that you need not worry. </p>

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The weeder classes are killer to make sure that the graduates are the best out there, which gives a huge boost to Berkeley’s reputation in the job market.

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<p>And exactly what happens to those students who don't make it through the weeders? Right.</p>

<p>Furthermore, I don't know that Berkeley's reputation helps all of its graduates get good jobs. I know people who are still in high school who work as Starbucks baristas. Or waitresses at local restaurants. </p>

<p>Career</a> Center - What Can I Do With a Major In...? </p>

<p>Don't get me wrong, killthefifi. I agree with some of the things that you say. I agree that the SF Bay Area is a true gem and Berkeley is indeed one of my favorite towns. I also agree without reservation that Berkeley is a wonderful place to go for graduate school, especially for your PhD.</p>

<p>But we also have to be fair. Berkeley's undergrad program, unfortunately, is not as good as its graduate program and, more importantly, is not as good as that of some of the other schools. I wish it was.</p>

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16) Take a look at the following picture:
<a href="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2171/...1199ca.jpg?v=0%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2171/...1199ca.jpg?v=0&lt;/a>
See those things on the right? WASHING MACHINES!
That's right, you get a view of the San Francisco Bay while folding your clothes.
Many other people pay thousands for a view of the SF Bay, and you, a mere college student, get that in your laundry room. Great schools like Cornell have the prestige, but what are you surrounded by? Oh yeah, the rural part of New York. For someplace like MIT, in Boston, you're still not even on the Atlantic, just near a small body of water.

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<p>If you want to have a photo-off, consider the following shot of the Back Bay skyline taken from the MIT campus.</p>

<p><a href="http://people.csail.mit.edu/oshani/photos/nov_2007/CharlesRiver/Boston_skyline_1.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://people.csail.mit.edu/oshani/photos/nov_2007/CharlesRiver/Boston_skyline_1.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Here's what's more amazing. That scene you see - you can walk to it. In less than 20 minutes. That's right: Boston is literally only about a mile away from the MIT campus, and in fact, many of MIT's frat houses are actually in Boston. In contrast, a 20 minute walk from the Berkeley campus won't even take you to the water's edge at the Berkeley Marina, and forget about actually being in San Francisco, which is a good 10-15 miles away and so is obviously not walkable.</p>

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<p>@ppiscicida:
7) It's not undergraduate friendly in the same sense of small, private colleges. Those schools have a "friendlier" undergrad program, because the reputation of the school is based on undergrads. At Cal, their reputation is based on the grad students, so of course they're more respected. Remember that Cal has an undergrad to grad ratio of 2.5 to 1, so they can't hate the undergrads too much! At stanfurd, and many other top schools, the graduates out number the undergrads. If Cal's undergrad program wasn't important, why would so many students choose it?</p>

<p>I got accepted at Berkeley, UCLA, USC, UCSD, UCI & the University of Maryland w/ a full ride.</p>

<p>UCLA, UCSD, UCI & USC I'm basically throwing out because they don't have very strong computer science programs. I'm looking out for my future, and if I have to reside in any area after college because of internships that turn into jobs, it would have to be the Bay Area.</p>

<p>UCLA, in particular, is a great school compared to Berkeley.
But it's just not me. If you're into the LA culture, it's great, but the campus seemed too... sterile. If you're considering that school, then look into the specific departments you're interested in. After looking into their engineering dept., I realized that it's not for me.</p>

<p>Now, down to the two I'm debating...
UMD & UCB
Right now I'm leaning towards Berkeley, solely because of the programs there.
I was offered an undergraduate research position at UMD as a high school student, but it was in research that didn't really make the impact I wanted. Sure, I'm an Apple fanatic, and I could have developed iPhone applications, but where's the global impact?</p>

<p>UCLA & USC are amazing schools, but they appear to be so entrenched in Southern California that branching out would be slightly difficult. Basically, it comes down to where do you want to live? I'm a nor cal kid, so Cal is perfect for me. If you're more so cal inclined, GO THERE! Cal was appealing because it best represents my personality & future goals. Good luck =]</p>

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It's right next to San Francisco. With your UCB card, you can take the F line bus into the city for free in 50 minutes, or take the BART for $3.30 and 20 minutes.Not only do you have Berkeley at your fingertips, you have the 2nd largest city in California just a stone’s throw away

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<p>See above. Berkeley is hardly "right next" to San Francisco. In contrast, Harvard and MIT truly are right next to Boston, and indeed, certain parts of Harvard and MIT are actually in Boston. </p>

<p>Secondly, SF is not the 2nd largest city in California. It's the 4th. First is Los Angeles, then San Diego, then San Jose.</p>

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If Cal's undergrad program wasn't important, why would so many students choose it?

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<p>I think the answer to that question is easy: because they couldn't get into another school that they preferred more (or perhaps couldn't afford). Like I said, Berkeley's yield is only around 40%, which means that a strong majority of students who are admitted choose to go elsewhere. Plenty of other students, i.e. the top students in the East, won't even bother to apply to Berkeley, either because they don't know about Berkeley or they're confident that they can get into another school that they would prefer more (i.e. an Ivy or MIT).</p>

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Remember that Cal has an undergrad to grad ratio of 2.5 to 1, so they can't hate the undergrads too much!

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<p>Yes they can. Trust me.</p>

<p>Or, if you don't trust me, then go ahead and ask, say, some of the current undergraduate engineering students exactly how much Berkeley can hate them.</p>

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I was planning on going to the SF nightlife rather than Berkeley's, because I know for a small city its nightlife can only be so big.

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<p>The problem is with getting there, and especially with getting back. Berkeley is actually not that close to SF. You truly can walk to downtown Boston from MIT or even Harvard (although admittedly the latter is stretch). Columbia is actually located in Manhattan. But clearly the trip from Berkeley to SF is not walkable. You need transportation. Last BART leaves SF just after midnight. You could take the night Owl Muni bus, but given the paucity of its frequency, I would hardly call that a desirable solution. Or you could have your own car, but then that means that you have to worry about parking it in both SF and Berkeley, and about being sober enough to drive back.</p>

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<p>Well, in quite a few cases the undergraduate programs are really genuinely as much of a strength as the graduate programs, given the same faculty reside in the university, and for go-getting undergraduates, it is possible to interact with them. Sakky's point, as I have discovered, is a good one, and is that somewhat meeker, less than shining students could do better for themselves by going elsewhere, rather than, say getting thrashed apart by our engineering department for instance. If you think you can avoid the thrashing, think again, and consider if you're evaluating things in a mature way. I am of the extremely firm opinion, however, that there is a recipe to knowing how you'll do in engineering, and that is *doing your homework on what the hell an engineering major at Cal is *. Know the courses you'll do inside out. Think it through, analyze how its program differs from other programs you made it into. I'm singling out engineering, but same goes for other math/science-oriented fields. If you really have researched these things and know what you're getting into, then you can come to Cal and you won't be blown away. </p>

<p>Our academic level is definitely terrific in quite a few departments, and what I find is that the main issue at Berkeley lies in the <em>LOWER LEVEL</em> coursework, which tends to be a bunch of competitive junk, which doesn't even necessarily teach you more. However, some of our classes at the lower division are very good -- for instance, in engineering. Not saying they won't be hard, but they're at least pretty good. The higher level work you get to at Cal, the more interesting + insane it is. </p>

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I suppose if you're fine with ending up working at Starbucks upon graduation, as that one English major did, then maybe it is true that you need not worry.

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<p>Or, be a smart English major, and figure out some career plans :) from what I hear, English undergraduate work at Cal won't slaughter you to pieces, unless you specifically take the hardest courses, which can indeed be toughies. And if you plan on law school, or getting a teaching credential (like someone I know), then you could end up very happy. </p>

<p>I think the most honestly I can put it is that our academics are very good, but our undergraduate program may seem somewhat impersonal, and frankly top faculty are only good if you really interact with them. You CAN if you choose to. But lots of classes are in fact big, and you will have to be super proactive.</p>

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<p>It is clearly possible, according to the data, to get into Ph.D. programs from small schools. I would, however, suggest that we look at the specific plus points of either case. In the small school case, you aren't going to run into the issue someone on this thread posted about -- a professor claiming he/she doesn't recognize you. Nevertheless, professors at Cal tend to have a reputation rivaled only by those at schools like Harvard, Princeton, etc -- i.e. the BIGGEST Ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc, in quite a few subjects. A letter of recommendation from them, if you CAN get one, is nothing to sneeze at, and at least within my major, it is possible for the proactive undergraduate. If you're not naturally proactive, I'd be careful of attending Berkeley and thinking the top faculty can help you at all though. Remember, you're an insect to them :)</p>

<p>In short, I'll make the statement that I think the reasons to attend Berkeley are quite similar to the reasons to attend Harvard, if you want to go to graduate school (aside from differences in different department strengths at these schools). A large school can be a great asset because of its amazing wealth of offerings, and a killer faculty is a great addition, as I've harped on and on about. Just keep my warnings into consideration, and you'll be fine.</p>

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I am of the extremely firm opinion, however, that there is a recipe to knowing how you'll do in engineering, and that is doing your homework on what the hell an engineering major at Cal is . Know the courses you'll do inside out. Think it through, analyze how its program differs from other programs you made it into. I'm singling out engineering, but same goes for other math/science-oriented fields. If you really have researched these things and know what you're getting into, then you can come to Cal and you won't be blown away.

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<p>I think that's quite the tall order for most prospective students. Let's face it. They don't really know what engineering is, and they never really have the chance to find out. Few if any high schools actually offer engineering courses. They certainly don't have the background to be able to read and understand a typical engineering course syllabus to know how the course is being taught or to even understand what the course topics even mean. {To this very day, I still don't understand what the heck the thermodynamic Maxwell Relations really mean.} </p>

<p>The problem of course is that you have to make the choice about whether to come to Berkeley or some other school before you even get to try engineering out. What if you matriculate and later find out that Berkeley's engineering program is not for you? Oh well, too bad, unless you can successfully transfer to another school, which is difficult if that school is a top-ranked one, you're stuck at Berkeley. If you performed poorly in your engineering courses (which is how you found out that it isn't for you), then your chances of successfully transferring will obviously drop precipitously, as no respectable school wants to take a transfer applicant who got poor grades in his prior school. </p>

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In short, I'll make the statement that I think the reasons to attend Berkeley are quite similar to the reasons to attend Harvard, if you want to go to graduate school (aside from differences in different department strengths at these schools

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<p>Well, one major difference between the ug programs at Harvard and Berkeley with respect to future PhD admissions is that the Harvard PhD programs are absolutely overrun with former Harvard undergrads, to the point where I have become increasingly convinced that Harvard may be the most incestuous school in the world (and I used to think that honor belonged to MIT). This is far less true at Berkeley. There really aren't all that many former undergrads in Berkeley's PhD programs, which is even more surprising when you consider the sheer size of the undergrad program.</p>

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But we also have to be fair. Berkeley's undergrad program, unfortunately, is not as good as its graduate program and, more importantly, is not as good as that of some of the other schools. I wish it was.

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<p>For your sake, I wish it were too. Because throughout the past few years, I've realized through your postings that you're one of those people who will spend the rest of their life complaining about how they shouldda, couldda, wouldda gone somewhere bigger, better and more prestigious than Cal. And hopefully, someday you'll realize that if you'd wiped your eyes and looked around you, you could have done anything you wanted to up there, and 10 years later people would be looking at YOU, saying "Man, I wish I could have had the opportunities he did."</p>

<p>For the sake of the 4 people who were rejected for your 1 spot, I hope you dry your eyes real quick. Because at this point, everyone can tell you only complain about Cal, and therefore no one takes you seriously. Millions of people would kill to be in your spot as a student up there. I hope you know that.</p>

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Well, in quite a few cases the undergraduate programs are really genuinely as much of a strength as the graduate programs, given the same faculty reside in the university, and for go-getting undergraduates, it is possible to interact with them.

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<p>Of course this all presupposes that the student even cares about grad school and research in the first place, yet the truth is, most Berkeley students don't. They're not interested in an academic lifestyle. They just want to get their bachelor's and then get a decent job, which is why I again have to return to the poignant example of the student who ended up working at Starbucks.</p>

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Because throughout the past few years, I've realized through your postings that you're one of those people who will spend the rest of their life complaining about how they shouldda, couldda, wouldda gone somewhere bigger, better and more prestigious than Cal.

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<p>And throughout the years, I've realized that you will perennially miss the central point of all of my posts: I want Berkeley to get better. Yet that's clearly never going to happen when people like you not only don't want to acknowledge the problems that exist, but don't want others to do so either. </p>

<p>Vc08, if you're not actually interested in having Berkeley improve, then just say so. That way, at least we'll all know where you stand.</p>

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Because at this point, everyone can tell you only complain about Cal, and therefore no one takes you seriously.

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<p>Is that so? I think I've stated numerous positive characteristics about Berkeley in the past. I'll repeat just a few here. The grad programs, especially the PhD programs truly are excellent. The research is renowned. The location is outstanding. </p>

<p>Unlike you, vc08, I'm a balanced discussant. I will proffer both the positive and the negative, as any serious participant should. Have you ever said anything negative about Berkeley? If not, then perhaps you should acknowledge that you only state one side of the story and hence nobody should ever take you seriously.</p>

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<p>"That's right, you get a view ...."
"Great schools like Cornell have the prestige, but what are you surrounded by? "</p>

<p>File:Ithaca</a> Hemlock Gorge.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Around</a> Ithaca, New York Photo Gallery by Unexplained Bacon at pbase.com
Explore</a> Cornell - Natural Beauty - Introduction</p>

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I think that's quite the tall order for most prospective students. Let's face it. They don't really know what engineering is, and they never really have the chance to find out. Few if any high schools actually offer engineering courses.

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<p>It's true that most students don't do their homework before coming into tough majors. I hope to encourage at least some to do so, however. You and I both know that no matter how many reality checks are provided here, quite a few engineers are going to come to Berkeley just because its rankings beat out practically every school's. Quite a few will remain cocky after their high school achievements. Hopefully some minority actually hears what I have to say, does its homework, and is better informed. </p>

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Of course this all presupposes that the student even cares about grad school and research in the first place, yet the truth is, most Berkeley students don't. They're not interested in an academic lifestyle. They just want to get their bachelor's and then get a decent job, which is why I again have to return to the poignant example of the student who ended up working at Starbucks.

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<p>Of course, there are many different shades of grey to be considered in between grad school and Starbucks! As I said, English majors can look to obtain teaching credentials, go to law school, or, maybe go on to grad school. The key to doing all these things is to be well-informed and realistic. Of course most students won't be either, but those who read what's written on this thread may have the opportunity to do both, if not one or the other. </p>

<p>I mean to say that even if one doesn't go to grad school -- there are enough undergrads without any such hopes whom I've seen enjoy the caliber of the faculty here. The kinds of scholars at Berkeley can be very special, in the same way the kinds of people at a school like Harvard can be. To the other group of people, well one has to ask -- what school would they really be better off at? I think at the point where we're assuming students don't really care where they go to school, just want a pretty prestigious school which is reputed to be rigorous or something, it's necessary to hear their individual cases for wanting to attend Berkeley, and hear where else they got accepted to before deciding.</p>

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<p>It is hilarious to see people take the time out to refute the claims of others about Berkeley. Thank you for educating us though.</p>

<p>@ppiscicida: why do I think you should choose Cal? How could I possibly answer that; I hardly know who you are! All I can tell you is that Berkeley is real. </p>

<p>It is not gated off from the world, there are no walls to separate the ghettos from the prestige of Sather Gate. </p>

<p>You WILL meet people from different backgrounds as you, and you will be expected to work together in harmony.</p>

<p>There WILL be people who will shove their agendas in your face, challenging you to think and rethink what concepts such as "politics", "race", "gender", and "equality" mean.</p>

<p>You WILL live green here. Berkeley is at the forefront of the eco revolution. Biodegrable plastic bags, a ban on styrofoam for use as take-out boxes, university vehicles run on corn and electricity, and spoons and forks from the cafeteria that are made out of corn.</p>

<p>No, you will not live green - you will be living in the future. Berkeley is leading in the way for living in the 21st century.</p>

<p>You mentioned you were intending to go along the lines of chemistry. Perfect. You can look forward to following in the footsteps of chemistry giants here. Everyday...</p>

<p>Picture yourself walking the same path, seeing the same trees, getting inspired by the same people and campus that previous chemists before you must have seen too. What did they see that pushed them to change the world?</p>

<p>They saw Berkeley. I hope you do too.</p>

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<p>Happy happy happy man. End of story.</p>