<p>I am starting to just get exasperatedly amused at how defensive people can get about certain things. Somehow I just cannot see myself happy with being under the terror of myopic, moribond union booses in my choice of cars. That aside, I mean, just a bloody yawn. I don't even feel like doing much debating on this one; it's like arguing a moot point. For ambitious, money-savvy chaps at Harvard, Wall Street is the holy grail. That much I know. and that is as far as I care. For all I know, few, on average, would be better judges of profitable careers than those smarty pants who made their way through Cambridge MA. Beyond that, I care little, and have little reason to.</p>
<p>I believe that so few people major in operations--both then and now--is because most people going into the business area at the top schools are all hoping to be the one or two people in investment banking or in finance that rise to the very highest level and make millions and millions of dollars per year (which is possible--just unlikely). I mean everybody in the NBA is making a million dollars per year also--but out of all the people who played basketball in college, how many play in the NBA--maybe 1/10 of 1%?</p>
<p>Same applies to people going into investment banking. Will a lot of people make a lot of money--no, but quite a few will. Others will end up like those at Bear Stearns--out of jobs, looking for somewhere to work. My wife had a cousin who worked in IB in 2001, made around $180,000 per year and actually had a meeting in the World Trade Tower early on September 11th that was moved offsite after the first plane hit. Earlier that year he had bought a gigantic house on multiple acres of land in New Jersey for him, his wife, and two kids located about 30 miles from NY. After 9/11 and the dot.com debacle, he lost everything and took a job making about $30,000 a year for a local bank, which is the only thing he could find considering all the layoffs everywhere. He finally managed to find a job at a $70,000 salary about a year and a half later (not in New York), but it was a gigantic drop from what he was used to--and, of course, he had to sell the house at a big loss just to get rid of the giant mortgage payment. </p>
<p>The fact is, if you are really good at what you study in business, you can usually rise up the ranks (or start your own company) and make a very good living. But IB--and some other fields, like those in semiconductors and housing--are all boom and bust, and not as steady fields as an area like operations, accounting, marketing management or someone who goes into a corporate finance job. </p>
<p>Oh, and as far as always believing everyone from Harvard knows best--I would refer you to a few of the following:
Jeff Skilling--former head of Enron found guilty of fraud
Carlos Salinas de Gortari--former Mexican president (1988 to 1994) guilty of corruption and believed to have been involved in the murder of his chosen successor frontline:</a> murder money & mexico: family tree: carlos salinas
Former US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales--recently resigned after multiple congressmen (including from his own party) believing he lied about the "purging" of lawyers who supported the Democratic party through contributions
Paul Bremer--head of Iraq's Provisional Authority, resigned when his organization was unable to account for over $60 billion given to them to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure after the Desert Storm war.
Robert McNamara--former defense secretary who was probably the single most responsible person for getting us involved in the Vietnam War</p>
<p>But, of course, there are many other top schools that have their interesting students (and even professors):
Carl Icahn of Princeton has been making billions by constantly using "greenmail" tactics--including the current attempts at both Yahoo and Motorola now underway; and
Back in 1987, Asher Edelman was teaching a course at Columbia and offered $100,000 to any student who would provide him information (without regard to whether it was inside information or not) that would result in a successful corporate takeover. Columbia asked him to withdraw his offer.<br>
Headliners</a>; In Business - New York Times</p>
<p>Note that both of these last two are billionaires--so, yes, people can get rich through Wall Street. However, some people (including me) question the ethics of these two--but they aren't in jail, so what they are doing is legal, even if somewhat questionable.</p>
<p>Just to be clear--every school has its "black sheep". My intent is not to disminish the education to be received at Harvard, Princeton, or Columbia. My intent is only to make clear that people from these schools do not have some kind of "hidden" gene that makes all their decisions better than those of people from other colleges (as sf606508 implies).</p>
<p>calcruzer, you beautifully proved my point. even in failure Ivy Leaguers triumph financially. heck i wouldn't mind being a disgraced former president; i probably would still get paid massive dough as special counsel at some corporate law firm. it is at least heck of a lot better than working for i dunno, John Deere. and Paul Bremer. the funny thing is, even despite his massive corruption, he is still alive, well, and most importantly, out of jail. and still enjoying massive amounts of cash, i would presume. and probably, again, still on dinner party lists on the Upper East Side and in the Hamptons. </p>
<p>I never said they make better judgments. if history has taught us anything, it is that elites are not necessarily better judges of situations. i just said that they were more successful, financially. and i take it that McNamara isn't about to need to worry about his 401k, even though he made such poor judgments about Vietnam.</p>
<p>nobody is in business primarily for glory, to find favour with history books, to make the best decisions for the world. it's mostly about the money and the prestige that comes with it. </p>
<p>skilling is a special case. i have no clue what happened to that idiot. i guess it is just pure, unrestrained greed that destroyed him. </p>
<p>tell you the truth, i am awful nervous about investment banking too. i don't know how it will be a few years down the road when i will enter the job market, and will be looking for that job paying me $150K. (which really isn't that much considering NYC cost of living). right now corporate m&a law sounds like a good option because white shoe firms don't dare do mass lay-offs. although the career path is just as awful and the office politics unbearable. </p>
<p>it's an awful thing really, how we torture our top 0.1% of students with arcane, byzantine college admission procedures, expensive tuition, and then are so despicably stingy with, make them wrestle amongst each other for jobs that pay consummerate with their merits and how hard they have worked to get where they are. at least the french Grand Ecoles guarantee high salaries and a seat in the boardroom.</p>
<p>What a bunch of elitist garbage.</p>
<p>I don't think anyone goes through life desiring to be plebeian.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For ambitious, money-savvy chaps at Harvard, Wall Street is the holy grail. That much I know. and that is as far as I care.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Top Mgt consulting jobs are more sought after than top IBanking jobs by MBAs. That much I know.</p>
<p>That much I know, and I only know that much. That much I know.</p>
<p>thanks for the worthwhile responses calcruzer</p>
<p>give the elitist ******** a rest guys</p>
<p>I am struck as to how Mgnt Consulting could be considered not Wall Street. Well, there is a fair bit of Back Bay Boston there too, but still.</p>
<p>^ "Wall Street" refers to a financial district in NYC and when someone refers to a "Wall Street" company they are talking about a company that provide financial services (that company may or may not be largely based in NYC). MGT consulting is a completely different animal.</p>
<p>^Quite right.</p>
<p>vector laid down some serious pwnage</p>
<p>White & Case is as much a Wall Street firm (in the legal sense) as Goldman is a Wall Street firm in the financial sense. </p>
<p>If you ever read the Int'l Herald Tribune, or the Daily Telegraph, or indeed the Times [London], they refer to a certain type of lawyers as City solicitors, a certain type of consultants as City consultants, and a certain type of bankers City bankers (merchant/investment bankers). The same methodology covers the American cousin across the pond, Wall Street.</p>
<p>God, I tire of arguing moot points. Litigiousness must be in the American nature.</p>
<p>sf606508, I and the others aren't totally disagreeing with all of your points, just certain ones. We are also concerned that your method of arguing your points do not take into account varying points of view--for example on the importance of money versus reputation--or on the limitation of operations mgmt majors to make a decent amount of money. And we also don't understand the need for insults in the discussion. I, for one, agree with your argument that those from Harvard are more likely to make large amounts of money than those going to other universities (see my link below to support your point)--but that doesn't mean that pursing an operations major from another college or university isn't worth anything, nor does it mean that graduates from other schools will not be successful as well. </p>
<p>All I ask is that you consider some of the other points on here--and not just think that because we don't agree with all of your points, that we are closed-minded ourselves.</p>
<p>Here's the link I mentioned to help support your one argument on Harvard grads being successful:</p>
<p>Vector is right. It's like saying "Hollywood" and "Silicon Valley" to represent their respective industries, not the physical locations.</p>
<p>sf606508's attitude and "method of arguing" are only too common on our "side of the pond" unfortunately. Over here your worth is basically determined by whether or not you work in "the City" at a "top firm" such as "Goldmans" or "Merrills" or "Lehmans"... <em>sigh</em></p>
<p>Most students over here who aspire to work in "the City" don't realise that "the City" is not used the same way in Britain as "Wall Street" is in the US.</p>
<p>I retract. I might have offended some inadvertently. For that apologise. And I did not intend to put down any profession or career path. And I have been overzealous in advancing my own position. For that also I apologise. </p>
<p>Nauru, I think you can more easily understand the English obsession with the City or whatever if you are aware that City, for the last few decades, has been the occupation of choice for sons of the landed aristocracy in their twenties (taking up increasings share amidst the decline of the Army and Foreign Service as prestige occupations). Even a dapper chap named Friedrich von Bismarck worked in the City for a while during the 80's. It is not even just a money thing; it is, unfortunately, the symbiosis of prestige, class, and wealth for the British middle classes (I mean middle classes in the Commonwealth, not American, sense), who of course, aspire to be like the landed classes. (a particular Briticism, not applicable to the New World). </p>
<p>calcruzer, I suspected the same for a long time. Having been in both the public and prep school systems, I have been struck by how the appropriate environment (prep) can stimulate even the most mediocre to financial success. I found notable that Yale managed to produce all of its billionaire alums purely through undergrad with no Yale graduate attendance whatsoever. Speaks for the strength of institutions like Skulls & Bones and Scrolls & Key, i guess. </p>
<p>To be quite honest, my gut instinct is that management, as a career, is dead in the water. But that is purely my personal opinion, and I will not argue for it as it is such a subjective question, and gut instincts are just that, gut instincts.</p>
<p>well, all I know is I heard operations and SCM are booming right now, and that was a large pull in my choosing to study OM. I still maintain that I enjoy it though. </p>
<p>ttt for anything else.</p>
<p>My friend at Northwestern tells me that an industrial engineering major can get any job that a business major or econ major can get + get the traditional industrial engineering jobs, is this true?</p>
<p>And for the record, ibanks and consulting firms do not care what you major but you have a better chance if the major is analytical (like business, industrial engineering, chemical engineering, economics, etc) because of the nature of the work. The only thing that ibanks and consulting firms care about is prestige of the school you go to.</p>