Why so few URMS in engineering???

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I think a lot of it is due to a lack of social support. A lot of URM's come from bad school districts and there isn't a structure there to cultivate potential engineers. That's a major problem in the United States -- not enough attention is put forth to identify students with the potential to do science and engineering.

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<p>Yet I wonder why it is that many poor Asians who also go to the same bad school districts (because they can't afford to live anywhere else) still exhibit unusual academic success and a strong prediliction to enter science and engineering in college. Nobody needed to "identify" them, they just somehow identified themselves. </p>

<p>As a case in point, Sowell once pointed out (I believe in his book "Race and Culture") that back in the days of colonialism, Chinese students in Hong Kong outperformed white students in Hong Kong in standardized math exams despite the fact that practically all of the white Hong Kong students were rich because they were inevitably children of the ruling British imperial class who attended elite private boarding/international schools, whereas the Chinese were stuck with the public school systems.</p>

<p>not to be mean... but in my high school, the black kids who hung out with each other(only with other blacks) did not do so well in academics. whereas the black kids who hung out in a more diverse group did better.</p>

<p>there are exceptions, one of my black track teammates from high school, who also goes to UMCP, is majoring in ENEE, and is doing extremely well even though he is in the first group of blakcs i referred to and he mainly hangs around ppl who go clubbing, party, and drink every weekend. </p>

<p>i think that when young black students are together, they love to talk about hip-hop, basketball, other sports, cars, and girls. going to a "black" middle and high school for 7 years, and being on the track team, allowed me to hear what their conversations were about, and rarely was academics brought up. but the ones in a more diverse setting, or the student with more educated parents, such as afro.sax.girl then they are more inclined to listen and hear discussion that focus on academics. truth is, culturally, asians care more about academics, thats why even if an asian kid was dumb, he would still try to major in engineering, maybe fail out, but since he had encountered something as hard as engineering, when he switches to business for example, he would do well.</p>

<p>haha just my opinion, if you got any questions, I can clear things up.</p>

<p>I knew I wanted to say a specific word but it just wouldn't come out... CULTURE was the word I was thinking of. I completely agree with hinmanCEO with regards to Asian culture. I don't know much about African-American culture, but academics is defiitely not a priority based on what I observed in high school.</p>

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I knew I wanted to say a specific word but it just wouldn't come out... CULTURE was the word I was thinking of. I completely agree with hinmanCEO with regards to Asian culture. I don't know much about African-American culture, but academics is defiitely not a priority based on what I observed in high school

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<p>It is true to some degree but that alone will not account for it. Their high level of success in terms of academics is attributed also because many are SMART. No more of this politically correct stuff. Asians perform well on a variety of standardized tests including IQ. The psychology community overwhelming agree with their success in measuring aptitude. </p>

<p>Now if your black that should not deter you from pursuing whatever you want. Statistics say nothing of the individual, it just provides probabilities. There are plenty of smart black people but a lot more not so smart. Just like their are a lot of smart white people and not so smart ones. But the proportion for white ppl's IQ distribution is skewed to the right by about a standard deviation. This also applies to reaction time and digit span.</p>

<p>The fact is, if you are a engineer you really need to know your stuff because well, you could kill people if you mess up bad enough, It happens. Sure there are guys who check your work, but sometimes things slip thorgh, so there is no room for letting a guy throgh just because they are poor or black.</p>

<p>I am white, and a male. I went to Herbert H. Lehman HS in Bronx, NY. My HS was about 60% Hispanic, 30% black and 10% white. of course there were some other races, but that was the general amount.</p>

<p>The level of Education students received was incredibly low, especially in math and science. I mean You would graduate just learning factoring polynomials in math. So for this reason, with the majority of Blacks & Hispanics being in Major cities, such as NYC I can definalt see how Engineering is not really looked at. When I told my college advisor that I wanted to be a Engineer she said I was crazy and out of 641 graduating seniors, other 3 of us were going for engineering, science or math. The Rest were going for easier majors like Business, English or History. Though 97% of my class went onto college, most chose the easier route.</p>

<p>Now I was told I was crazy by teachers and advisors, but I am still in it and love it.</p>

<p>BTW it took me 3 semesters of school just to catch up in math, my school didn't even have any Ap's when I graduated. So I can defiantly see where and why nobody Black, white or Hispanic would want to go into engineering, its just to dam hard and would take to much work.</p>

<p>At school there are a few Blacks whom are my good friends, 5they are some of the most brilliant Engineering students I have ever met. Though they all came from Upper NY and not NYC.</p>

<p>There is a role model for URM. Shirley Jackson, female african american physicist, is president of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. She is the first african american woman to earn PhD in MIT</p>

<p>There is story about when she got in MIT undergrad, no one want to work because of her gender and skin color. She couldn't find study group and wasn't taken seriously by professors. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.girls-explore.com/bios/shirley-jackson.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.girls-explore.com/bios/shirley-jackson.php&lt;/a>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Jackson_%28physicist%29%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Jackson_%28physicist%29&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I am a typical dumb Asian major in engineering....</p>

<p>i am as well. i got the lowest gpa among my peers :(</p>

<p>The black kids in my high school were not on track with the curriculum-lmao. They weren't doing very well at all and kept failing and retaking classes like algebra 1. I was taking this really simple english class where you just read a couple of books and do a few assignments- like summarize the book, etc. - i only took it because it was very easy. There were 3 black kids in the class who got like 50's/40's.They were always cracking jokes and were very funny. The class was very small and the teacher used to yell out our grades. I felt guilty because I couldn't contain myself anytime i heard their grades and I would put my palm over my mouth and turn away so noone saw me..but one time i burst out in laughter when i heard the teacher say '46'...everyone in the class looked at me and started laughing(including the kid who got the 46)- i mean it was just ridiculous--all you have to do is pick a short, really easy book and read it- even if you don't want to read it you can go on sparknotes- plus there was tonnes of extra credit. Nothing has changed since i came to college- all the african americans in engineering are either doing bad or are taking remedial classes. and most of the black engineering kids at my school are africans. I know some of it has to do with where i am (pennsylvania) and i'm hoping if i transfer to a school in NY or Cali, i'll meet some high performing black kids who aren't african.</p>

<p>africans tend to do better than african-americans in engineering.</p>

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africans tend to do better than african-americans in engineering.

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<p>It might be because some of the brightest leave Africa and study. Just like the Chinese and Indians who come to this country and study. Not very representitive of the population.</p>

<p>In all of my college EE classes, I have seen total of three male black and one female black EE students. One of the black male is from Ghana. I also have one and only black EE TA, he is from Ghana, too. He is pretty smart.</p>

<p>I'm from ghana too.</p>

<p>VTjas81- most African countries follow the british system. The curriculum is very rigorous and more advanced than middle and secondary schools in the U.S. Granted a lot of african kids don't get to go to school because they're poor, but those who do take a rigorous courseload.There's a lot of talent in Africa-- contrary to the impression you get when you watch any show that has to do with africa. But of course the U.S is the one of the best places to come to for a college degree and a job.</p>

<p>Isn't it funny that African kids do much better than African-American kids? It can't be intelligence that keeps af-am's from engineering majors because they have the same genes as Africans. I think it is all because of culture and how they are raised. Africans realize that opportunities are very limited so they work hard and their parents help them get a good education and that is completely opposite of what African-American kids have been taught.</p>

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africans tend to do better than african-americans in engineering.

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<p>And similarly, West Indian black immigrants (i.e. immigrants from Jamaica, DR, Barbados, etc.) tend to do better than African-Americans do. </p>

<p>For example, to quote from Sowell: "a study published last year indicated that most of the black alumni of Harvard were from either the West Indies or Africa, or were the children of West Indian or African immigrants. These people are the same race as American blacks, who greatly outnumber either or both". </p>

<p><a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006608%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006608&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"West Indians have long produced a disproportionate share of black American success stories. Their average family income is now 40% higher than that of all blacks in the U.S., and the percentage who are professionals (9%) is equal to that of native-born blacks. Says Dr. Asa Hilliard, an educational psychologist at Georgia State University: "Immigrants from the Caribbean are, overwhelmingly, the most successful black immigrant group, both politically and economically.""</p>

<p><a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,959569,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,959569,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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It might be because some of the brightest leave Africa and study. Just like the Chinese and Indians who come to this country and study. Not very representitive of the population

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<p>Uh, I don't think anybody is arguing that those immigrants are representative of the entire population of the home country.</p>

<p>What it does illustrate is, hkapoo pointed out, culture and attitudes matter. Those who do not have good attitudes towards education and hard work tend not to do well. </p>

<p>This is illustrated even within the American black population. Consider what Sowell had to say about the success of Dunbar High School, a Washington DC public black high school back in the days of segregation, and its self-selected (and hence highly motivated) student body of American blacks. </p>

<p>*
"Back in 1899, in Washington, D. C., there were four academic public high schools-- one black and three white.1 In standardized tests given that year, students in the black high school averaged higher test scores than students in two of the three white high schools.
This was not a fluke. It so happens that I have followed 85 years of the history of this black high school-- from 1870 to 1955 --and found it repeatedly equalling or exceeding national norms on standardized tests. In the 1890s, it was called The M Street School and after 1916 it was renamed Dunbar High School but its academic performances on standardized tests remained good on into the mid-1950s.</p>

<p>When I first published this information in 1974, those few educators who responded at all dismissed the relevance of these findings by saying that these were "middle class" children and therefore their experience was not "relevant" to the education of low-income minority children. Those who said this had no factual data on the incomes or occupations of the parents of these children-- and I did.
The problem, however, was not that these dismissive educators did not have evidence. The more fundamental problem was that they saw no need for evidence. According to their dogmas, children who did well on standardized tests were middle class. These children did well on such tests, therefore they were middle class.
Lack of evidence is not the problem. There was evidence on the occupations of the parents of the children at this school as far back in the early 1890s. As of academic year 1892-93, there were 83 known occupations of the parents of the children attending The M Street School. Of these occupations, 51 were laborers and one was a doctor. That doesn't sound very middle class to me.
Over the years, a significant black middle class did develop in Washington and no doubt most of them sent their children to the M Street School or to Dunbar High School, as it was later called. But that is wholly different from saying that most of the children at that school came from middle-class homes.
During the later period, for which I collected data, there were far more children whose mothers were maids than there were whose fathers were doctors. For many years, there was only one academic high school for blacks in the District of Columbia and, as late as 1948, one-third of all black youngsters attending high school in Washington attended Dunbar High School. So this was not a "selective" school in the sense in which we normally use that term-- there were no tests to take to get in, for example-- even though there was undoubtedly self-selection in the sense that students who were serious went to Dunbar and those who were not had other places where they could while away their time, without having to meet high academic standards. (A vocational high school for blacks was opened in Washington in 1902).
A spot check of attendance records and tardiness records showed that The M Street School at the turn of the century and Dunbar High School at mid-century had less absenteeism and less tardiness than the white high schools in the District of Columbia at those times. The school had a tradition of being serious, going back to its founders and early principals.
Among these early principals was the first black woman to receive a college degree in the United States-- Mary Jane Patterson from Oberlin College, class of 1862. At that time, Oberlin had different academic curriculum requirements for women and men. Latin, Greek and mathematics were required in "the gentlemen's course," as it was called, but not in the curriculum for ladies. Miss Patterson, however, insisted on taking Latin, Greek, and mathematics anyway. Not surprisingly, in her later 12 years as principal of the black high school in Washington during its formative years, she was noted for "a strong, forceful personality," for "thoroughness,' and for being "an indefatigable worker." Having this kind of person shaping the standards and traditions of the school in its early years undoubtedly had something to do with its later success.
Other early principals included the first black man to graduate from Harvard, class of 1870. Four of the school's first eight principals graduated from Oberlin and two from Harvard. Because of restricted academic opportunities for blacks, Dunbar had three Ph.Ds among its teachers in the 1920s.
One of the other educational dogmas of our times is the notion that standardized tests do not predict future performances for minority children, either in academic institutions or in life. Innumerable scholarly studies have devastated this claim intellectually, though it still survives and flourishes politically.
But the history of this black high school in Washington likewise shows a pay-off for solid academic preparation and the test scores that result from it. Over the entire 85-year history of academic success of this school, from 1870 to 1955, most of its 12,000 graduates went on to higher education. This was very unusual for either black or white high-school graduates during this era. Because these were low-income students, most went to a local free teachers college but significant numbers won scholarships to leading colleges and universities elsewhere.
Some M Street School graduates began going to Harvard and other academically elite colleges in the early twentieth century. As of 1916, there were nine black students, from the entire country, attending Amherst College. Six were from the M Street School. During the period from 1918 to 1923, graduates of this school went on to earn 25 degrees from Ivy League colleges, Amherst, Williams, and Wesleyan. Over the period from 1892 to 1954, Amherst admitted 34 graduates of the M Street School and Dunbar. Of these, 74 percent graduated and more than one-fourth of these graduates were Phi Beta Kappas.
No systematic study has been made of the later careers of the graduates of this school. However, when the late black educator Horace Mann Bond studied the backgrounds of blacks with Ph.D.s, he discovered that more of them had graduated from M Street-Dunbar than from any other black high school in the country.
The first blacks to graduate from West Point and Annapolis also came from this school. So did the first black full professor at a major university (Allison Davis at the University of Chicago). So did the first black federal judge, the first black general, the first black Cabinet member, the first black elected to the United States Senate since Reconstruction, and the discoverer of a method for storing blood plasma. During World War II, when black military officers were rare, there were more than two dozen graduates of M Street or Dunbar High School holding ranks ranging from major to brigadier general.
All this contradicts another widely-believed notion-- that schools do not make much difference in children's academic or career success because income and family background are much larger influences. If the schools themselves do not differ very much from one another, then of course it will not make much difference which one a child attends. But, when they differ dramatically, the results can also differ dramatically." *</p>

<p><a href="http://www.tsowell.com/speducat.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tsowell.com/speducat.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Students that come to America for Educational purposes are usually at the top of the top in there home countries.</p>

<p>that's not true at all.Students who come to the U.S. usually have parents/relatives here and therefore have an easier time getting a visa OR they are rich.</p>

<p>"Students that come to America for Educational purposes are usually at the top of the top in there home countries."</p>

<p>Well its not just that.</p>

<p>The US high school and middle school sytem is easier compared to India or other foreign nations like China or Singapore.</p>

<p>I mean the average student learns Algebra I in like 6 or 7th grade...
and Chem, Physics, and Bio is taught from like 7th grade...</p>

<p>Things are taught earlier there...must be the reason why all B.S. programs are three years long.</p>

<p>"...the british system. The curriculum is very rigorous and more advanced than middle and secondary schools in the U.S...."</p>

<p>The US system is also a little strange because they divide up the students; like AP, honors, advanced, and then average classes...its like a caste system.</p>

<p>if you have relatives in U.S,you may have problem with your F-1 visa.
Most international students don't have relatives in U.S I guess.</p>