Why so few URMS in engineering???

<p>I think the ppl that are most screwed are Asians because of politically correctness</p>

<p><a href="http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/prop209.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/prop209.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Interesting website. It describes what would happen without affirmative action. In one study on UCLA medical school 51/489 black/hispanic applicants were accepted with preference. But without preference for race only 1 or 2 out of 489 would be accepted</p>

<p>That website has some very un-PC stuff...:)</p>

<p>But then again, you did a straight link to a Ruston paper. Hilarious.</p>

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Asians have always outperformed the competition as far as mathematics and sciences goes. Take that into consideration.

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<p>but few great scientists are Asian.that's interesting.</p>

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Not only that, Being "white" is a disadvantage. with all the equal opportunity education and employment rules that have been set up, it is easy to argue that a URM with the same stats as me would easily get the position at a top school over me, due to the fact that i am caucasian.

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Actually,there's nothing worse than being Asian.Some colleges,especially some top schools limit admissions of Asian.</p>

<p>i am asian-american, chinese american to be specific. and ONE race, or ethnic group is naturally smarter. that is just racist and false. I do think the best African-Americans (or them in general) are more athletic than Asian-Americans (in general) like ability to jump, muscle mass, etc. I play sports all the time, and I still can't dunk. lol.</p>

<p>BUT, I think Asian-Americans are doing better because 1)Affirmative Action is dying. Thank God. 2) Our culture; as much as we want to rebel from our parents, we still picked up their values. Yesterday's July 4th party's talk topics, revolved around summer plans (internships/classes/work), football, bball, and also career paths. That's what we think about. 3) Parents. This is a bit personal, but listen to this. Ten years ago we bought a $125k townhouse, and I went to a "ghetto" high school. Despite being an Asian-American male interested in engineering, I still got into Cornell, but had a measly $2.5 scholarship to my state U. I am at that state U now. UMCP :) but my parents still decided to buy a $600k house last summer so my brother, now a rising sophomore can go to a better high school. This high school yields about 75 (ppl go to those schools, even more at accepted) ivy leaguers / private pimp school prospects a year, compared to say 15 in my high school.</p>

<p>While volunteering in DC (washington) i seen people on welfare with air jordnas ($100+?) I am wearing a pair of converse which I have worn for the past year (11 months i guess) which cost around $30-40. It is about priorities. Most Asians are driven (the more Americanized we get, the lazier we are) but look at the engineers, the doctors, and the restaurant owners; they got drive baby.</p>

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i am asian-american, chinese american to be specific. and ONE race, or ethnic group is naturally smarter. that is just racist and false. I do think the best African-Americans (or them in general) are more athletic than Asian-Americans (in general) like ability to jump, muscle mass, etc. I play sports all the time, and I still can't dunk. lol.

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<p>You say no race is smarter than the other yet you claim black people are naturally more athletic?? I guess genetic differences only arises on the physical level. Oh wait...isn't the brain a physical organ as well? Science shows us physical brain differences between the sexes and between racial groups. And you say its racist to talk about relative intelligence but you mention black athletes being superior. Isn't that racist according to your definition then?</p>

<p>not at all. one average, blacks are taller. I will get banned for this, but I will say it. I do believe in the survival of the fittest. I once heard...</p>

<p>The reason why African-Americans do not do as well in school and are athletic because...</p>

<p>they had to be dumb to get caught, and strong enough to survive the trip over. </p>

<p>Do I believe that? No. But looking at pro sports, you can see more blacks than asians, period.</p>

<p>i never said black athletes were superior, I just said they got more ups and muscles.</p>

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I do think the best African-Americans (or them in general) are more athletic than Asian-Americans (in general) like ability to jump, muscle mass, etc.

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<p>You said they were more athletic. Wouldn't that make them superior athletes? And you say on average blacks are taller. Well on average asian brain sizes are bigger. And brain size correlates to intelligence to a degree. </p>

<p>You mentioned asians have more drive. Why couldn't "drive" be a genetic trait?</p>

<p>Asian-Americans in general have more academic drive and prestige. African-Americans have more drive towards sports and money.</p>

<p>both have drive, but the culture makes their dirve in different areas, sir.</p>

<p>himanCEO is right on the money. African Americans can typically try to look for the easy way "out the hood" or to get "hood rich" as opposed to asians who are bought up to believe that college education may be the single most important element in staying in the middle class.
I grew up in NYC and went to a public HS most students afro-americans in the school dropped out to hang out on the streets</p>

<p>genetics can and do affect character traits, such as "drive" and intelligence. yet taking into consideration cultural differences and the determinist distribution of power in the world today, i dont think ANYONE is knowledgeable enough to attribute these traits as inherent to a certain ethnic group. Yes, blacks tend to be taller. Arguably, they tend to be more athletic. Let's not beat around the bush. Living in Africa is more physically demanding, due to environment and cultural lifestyle. We can point out physical differences all day.. Northern European people have higher nasal bridges to compensate for the colder air, while asians tend to be shorter, perhaps due to the abundance of carbohydrates in their diet. Yet even if we base our judgements of intelligence on observation alone, the "power" a certain ethnic group possesses is a modern determinist outcome. Wealth, technology, geography, and culture all contribute in an infinitely complex way to how certain people do in life.</p>

<p>I'm sorry if I seem naive, VTjas, but I can't say I buy the brain size study. Your first article was from American Renaissance, which is a "white separatist magazine", according to wikipedia...I'm sorry if I can't give much credibility there. Secondly, many of these comparisons are based on IQ tests. Whether you like it or not, IQ is cultural. Being asked to recognize patterns in a particular context is something children in first-world nations do daily in school. Yes, it may be the gateway to "higher" thinking, but without encouragement, it will never be as developed as with someone with the background. Thirdly, I'm not a brain expert. I do believe most of these studies are politically driven, and while I don't possess the background to assess their validity, I'm willing to accept the fact that there ARE genetic differences correlating with intelligence within different peoples, however minor they may be. I don't, however, believe it plays a major role; enough to be relevant given the importance of cultural nourishment, nor enough to be mentioned given the social consequences and racism that would result from people without a broader understanding.
just my opinion.</p>

<p>Hi, while I respect everyone's opinions and believes about Blacks, Asians etc, some of this stuff posted up here is BULLCRAP. Blacks do not have some magical athletic gene that causes us to excel in sports. Intead we have determination, perseverance, and DRIVE. The drive to do well in a sport whether it be football, basketball, soccor etc. For example, my brother literally spends HOURS upon Hours playing basketball at the gym. It is because of his determination and DRIVE that he is such a phenomenal player. The same is true of other young black kids. On top of all of this he has all A's in honors courses. So it really ****es me off when people see us sex driven, basketball playing, money hungry inferiors. I and millions of other Blacks like me are living proofs to the contrary to those stereotypes. </p>

<p>Also, I read tons of books and work my a-- off to excel in school. But when I start applying to top colleges and ivies, people are going to the throw that AA crap at me. No matter how hard I work that AA banner will forever be over my head. Like my dad always tells me, "you've got to be TWICE as smart and work TWICE as hard as the ASIANS and WHITES just to get any respect."</p>

<p>To hinmanCEO: You say "Most Asians are driven (the more Americanized we get, the lazier we are) but look at the engineers, the doctors, and the restaurant owners; they got drive baby." </p>

<p>So do us Black folks. How do you think we survived after over 300 years of brutal slavery. How do you think my grandfather worked for over 25 years in backbreaking sharecropping just to get his family to a better place. How do you think my dad dropped out of 9th grade, joined the navy, went back to college WITHOUT taking the SAT, majored in Chemistry, and got his law degree. How do you think my grandmother slaved day after day after day in another woman's house just to feed her kids. Do you want to know why? It's because they had DRIVE.The DRIVE to succeed in an prejudice, overbearing world. So please don't give be some CRAP about how asians are the only race with drive. Also,currently, more and more doctors, engineers, and other professionals are young Blacks.</p>

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The drive to do well in a sport whether it be football, basketball, soccor etc.

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I would like to make a non-ethnic, non-racial comment about this statement that determination and drive will get you where you want to go. I only wish this were true. Some people have the build to do better in certain sports, but for some no amount of practice will help. Some people wish they were great musicians and practice like crazy but don't have the talent. Some students get easy A's without studying and some must work really hard for that B (or even that C). Sure, hard work helps but wishing doesn't always make it so. We would do well to accept our individual talents and abilities and build upon those.</p>

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I'm sorry if I seem naive, VTjas, but I can't say I buy the brain size study. Your first article was from American Renaissance, which is a "white separatist magazine", according to wikipedia...I'm sorry if I can't give much credibility there.

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<p>White supremacist site? Wow I didn't know, but since you trust wikipedia then go search "race and intelligence" as well as "sex and Intelligence". You will see a correlation about ~0.4 with brain size and IQ. </p>

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Secondly, many of these comparisons are based on IQ tests. Whether you like it or not, IQ is cultural.

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<p>Anthropologists would say that but overwhelmingly psychologist will support the idea of IQ. Im sorry but psychologists would certainly have more expertise in this field. The idea of IQ was developed in the west yet asians score higher on average than caucasians?? Neuroscience also shows that there are physical differences in the brains between different groups. I'll give you a few examples. Women on average tend to have more grey matter than men while men have more white matter. Men tend to have more long distance connections to the other parts of the brain. Women's left and right side of the brain is more efficient in transfering signals than men. Asians score much higher on spatial skills compared to verbal. Even the ones born here. Go pick up Scientific America or Discovery if your not convinced. It might have been last months. </p>

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Thirdly, I'm not a brain expert. I do believe most of these studies are politically driven, and while I don't possess the background to assess their validity, I'm willing to accept the fact that there ARE genetic differences correlating with intelligence within different peoples, however minor they may be. I don't, however, believe it plays a major role; enough to be relevant given the importance of cultural nourishment, nor enough to be mentioned given the social consequences and racism that would result from people without a broader understanding.

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<p>I do agree much of what we see in the media is politically or socially driven. Why do you suppose the prevailing attitude among this thread is that culture alone determines intelligence and success in various fields. The truth is suppressed for being un-pc. I do agree culture plays a role but I disagree genetics play an almost negligble role. If were comparing middle and upper class america, I see genetics playing a very large role. Opportunities and nutrition are there. People are free to express their genetic dispositions. They are free to choose whatever environments they want, whether intellectually stimulating or not. And this will further enrich their minds.</p>

<p>"himanCEO is right on the money. African Americans can typically try to look for the easy way "out the hood" or to get "hood rich" as opposed to asians who are bought up to believe that college education may be the single most important element in staying in the middle class."</p>

<p>I never really liked the fact that many African Americans are always associated with living "in the hood" or in the ghetto. As an African American, the one thing I've noticed is that many of our African American youth don't have high self-esteem (particularly when it comes to academics). I've talked and tutored with younger kids (whether in low-income neighborhoods or from my high school) and many of them don't think they were smart enough to go to college. The fact that many people view the fields of Science and Math to be incredibly hard doesn't help either. I just think we need a little more encouragement in the school systems, not necessarily from Science/Math/Engineering programs by colleges. I won't even go on the topic of Affirmative Action because that's another topic itself and the debate just seems to go right around in a circle. </p>

<p>But I will agree that many of these public school systems need much better curriculums and structure. I was blessed to have gone to a decent high school where I was able to challenge myself. Although I love the arts and humanities, I knew I wanted to have a career that was somewhere in the Science/Math/Engineering field.</p>

<p>i wonder if black girl is talking about some exceptiopns.....</p>

<p>i'm sorry but there's no way you guys have to work twice as hard lol.</p>

<p>asians ahve to work TWICE as hard and TWICE as much driven to get in a place urms can easier (relatively) get into.</p>

<p>besdies, it's ignorant to say ppl who do well in sports is PURELY b/c of drive and motivation</p>

<p>say you're naturally short, like most asians, u are DESTINIED to not play basketball. now dont give me the "bullcrap" as u metioned about giving some exceptions about NBA players that are 5'9. how many 5'9 ppl can play NBA?
genetics are definitely the prerequisite for sports. it's also a a natural trait to jiump higher or not besides the training. if your body isn't built that way, like asians, you simply cant jump as high no matter how hard you try. just like if you're 5', u simply CANT PLAY BASKETBALL. work 1000000 times as hard and michael jordan, and u still get nothing. </p>

<p>after genetical variation is established, who is to say genetics can affect physical ability but not mental ability?</p>

<p>true, the MAIN reason why asians do so much better than any other race IN THE US is b/c of culture, but is anyone sure there is that 10% or 20% from genes? businessweek actually said harvard did some research and concluded it is 20% genes and 80% culture.</p>