<p>You know, with all of this talk about jocks getting in with ease, we seem to be forgetting something: Ibanking is a business! In other words, while a "dumber" jock with connections may get the job, if they can't produce results then they're fired! Ibanking is cut-throat, and thankfully it's the smart and successful who triumph in the end, not the dumb and connected. Connections get you through the door, but brains keep you there.</p>
<p>btw the relative of the bankers a complete cokehead who is on academic probation.</p>
<p>Heh smart and successful. Success is not as highly correlated to ">140 IQ" in business. You don't need to be smart as in PhD in "theoretical physics" smart. Banking is a client business. You need to schmooze and socialize with clients and build a network which will eventually give you business. When you get to the MD level you don't do the number crunching (which itself is not rocket science...its a generalized template), you go around talking to various CEOs/buy side firms who may throw business at you in the future and keep your underlyings on schedule. There was a nice little article on Fortune about Paulson's schedule. Click here and then go to Paulson's tab: <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/02/news/newsmakers/howiwork_fortune_032006/%5B/url%5D">http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/02/news/newsmakers/howiwork_fortune_032006/</a></p>
<p>If you really want to be a rocket scientist you belong in the various quant desks and funds out there.</p>
<p>Also jocks at places like Penn and Harvard are still, on average, smarter than the population. Managing a decent GPA while being committed to playing a sport is a difficult task.</p>
<p>i agree with mahras2...</p>
<p>Bern, first year banking offers and signing bonuses are pretty much lockstepped, just like law graduates from top schools getting the same amount from top firms. Could your friend be getting more ? he could have, but I doubt it. I know you referred to the survey of the class of 2004 getting 25k to 85k, but at the top end, I doubt very much it was an IB offer.Could have been Ivanka Trump getting it from her dad.</p>
<p>About 62% of the class of 2004 went into financial services and the average salary is $53000 so you can see the IB offers do not exceed $60k.</p>
<p>IB first year is all about crunching numbers, you do not schmooze with clients untill you become a VP.</p>
<p>I agree most jocks at Penn and Harvard are generally more inclined to academics, otherwise they would have accepted DI scholarships. However, we know that connections may get you an interview, but IB offers are super competitive as we've been discussing here everyday, and in this industry, GPA is the first screening criteria. Your Wharton career office will tell you that in your resume, your GPA should be up there on line 2 or 3, after your school name. If it's not included, it's highly unlikely that you would be getting a phone call.</p>
<p>I also know that individual GPA is a closely guarded information, hardly anyone shares that with others, so I am wondering how you know so many people's GPA's. My son knew his firm's cut off because the hiring officer casually mentioned it to him more than a year after he was hired.</p>
<p>Yes, I know that athletes' GPA's may be lower due to time spent practising their sports and competing. That's why those with high GPAs will go far. Both my son and his girlfriend lettered all 4 years; both are Phi Beta Kappa. My son is leaving his IB job after 2 years even though he's been invited to stay as a 3rd year analyst/associate. He is going to a PE firm. His girlfriend is at Harvard Medical School on an almost full ride.</p>
<p>"first year banking offers and signing bonuses are pretty much lockstepped..."</p>
<p>I agree with this to that point that there is a "locked" range of salaries but at some firms the range drastically. Two of my friends this year are going to work for Citigroup, both have similar stats, etc. yet one's salary offer is 55k while the other's is 75k. There is definitely a big range and if a firm really wants to pull you away from other firms they'll make you better offers. </p>
<p>"GPA is the first screening criteria."</p>
<p>True but if you come in with connections this screening process is usually bypassed and you get an interview directly...this is where "jocks," in general, perform well. </p>
<p>" also know that individual GPA is a closely guarded information, hardly anyone shares that with others, so I am wondering how you know so many people's GPA's. "</p>
<p>At least in my circle of friends no one is really that competitive and everyone knows each others GPA, grades in classes, etc. (probably because we were all raised in countries other than the US...our culture - latin american - is much less competitive and much more open about our lives). Plus you're always hearing of the athlete cases because when they are drunk they tend to brag about how they got an offer from X IB with their 2.4 gpa or you also hear from other friends already in banking...</p>
<p>"About 62% of the class of 2004 went into financial services and the average salary is $53000 so you can see the IB offers do not exceed $60k."
I don't understand how a Wharton graduate cannot make more than $60k in salary as an Ibanking analyst. Even here in Toronto, I always hear of grads from our top business schools having a first year salarys of 60k+ and 40K in bonuses.</p>
<p>Well, I have first hand knowledge of the whole process because of my son. I just want some factual information here, not anecdotal ones, especially heresays that cannot be confirmed.</p>
<p>I cannot emphasize that there are a lot of exaggerations and bravado (aka bragging)especially in this glorified profession. As often repeated in this and many other posts, connections can only get interviews, not job offers unless based on the individual merit. Most people are unwilling to stick their necks out for you unless they know you are very competent, otherwise it makes them look bad. </p>
<p>The salary figure I gave was for the class of 2004, they raised it every year since then because the market has since upticked. Sign-on bonuses are usally constant but year end bonuses are varied with each individual's performances, his group's performances and his department's. They rank each analyst within the group on performance also. If you are not able to perform, you are let go.</p>
<p>Bern, if your friends are URMs, then it's altogether a different ball game.</p>
<p>I want to know.So theres absolutely no way someone from a state school can become an analyst in an i banking firm? These jobs are exclusively available to ivy league gradutes? What if i graduate from Penn State witha chem E + math degree and want to work as a quant under the sales and trading dividion of an top ibanking firm? No chance?</p>
<p>caa> Thats going to be very hard regardless of what school you come out of. Many quants get PhDs in hard sciences or a masters so you may want to go that route first. You also need top notch mathematics and programming skills. You will get more info on this from another forum. PM me for info.</p>
<p>Most of the people i've talked about are international students from latin america...i guess we're considered URMs (don't know if they treat it differently as most of the intl latin americans come from extremely wealth backgrounds). </p>
<p>and yeah connections can pretty much only get you interviews...very special cases will get you a job offer (i do know of some - like the crackhead non-urm guy i mentioned above who didn't even have to go through the formal interview process for his job)...he'll probably get fired quickly.</p>
<p>mahras-i've pmed you-----------------</p>
<p>mahras2 you said that most quants have phds in hardcore math and I always here this..but how come top hedge fund guys such as Steven Cohen, Paul Tudor, Kenneth Griffin and David Tepper all don't have phds or math degrees.</p>
<p>cbreeze you can see on this site <a href="http://business.queensu.ca/careers/docs/October2005FinalEmploymentResults.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://business.queensu.ca/careers/docs/October2005FinalEmploymentResults.pdf</a> , what people entering finance from the top undergraduate business program in Canada make. As you can see the top grad got 150k starting salary and you can bet that he probably got a job at Goldman or morgan as an Ibanker. and if someone at Queens, where Maybe 1 grad lands a job in the states at Goldman, makes over 60k. than I guarantee ppl at what is considered the best business school in the world that sends about 20 ppl/yr to Goldman can make that as well.</p>
<p>Sammy> Steve Cohen, PTJ, Tepper are not quants nor do they manage the quant desks. They are hedge fund managers that trade funds in a whole different style. However, Cohen and PTJ have quants/quant traders trading specific funds under the umbrella management company. For example, Neil Chriss works for SAC and the guys that founded Two Sigma were the ex-CIOs of Tudor Investments. Those big names are the head of the management company which contains several funds/portfolios. They usually also manage specific funds/portfolios in a discretionary style. I believe that SAC happens to have something like 35-40 funds/portfolios under its belt.</p>
<p>As for Griffin, he doesn't need a PhD because he is smart like that (and he basically was his own boss since day 1). There are quants/quant traders (including the guy that runs the desk at the firm I intern at) who do not have PhDs. However, they are ridiculously smart folk and are equal if not better problem solvers than PhDs.</p>
<p>The only way I see people with connections getting an IBanking job easily, is if one of their parents made the firm hundreds of millions of dollars.</p>
<p>Sammy , I don't know what position the top grad was paid at 150k. Perhaps he was working at his dad's firm. There are quite a few students from Queens coming from Hong Kong and perhaps they were paid the high amount at their father's firm back in Hong Kong. I can only say from my personal experience. As you can see, the job market in 2003 and 2004 were much worse than 2005. Actually, the worst year was 2002 when I know a few graduates had offers rescinded from I banks.</p>
<p>I only know that my son and most of the people he knows were not offered that salary in 2004 and he had an offer from one of the two banks that you mentioned. However, I know that the starting salary has since been raised by about 18%.</p>
<p>Don't fret over their starting salaries though........they are doing VERY well now.</p>
<p>well, a question, please give me a bit of hint: is GPA3.5+ in Stern finance good enough to get interviews of I-banking?
and will a major in finance help me to get a I-banking job?</p>
<p>
[quote]
cbreeze you can see on this site <a href="http://business.queensu.ca/careers/...mentResults.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://business.queensu.ca/careers/...mentResults.pdf</a> , what people entering finance from the top undergraduate business program in Canada make. As you can see the top grad got 150k starting salary and you can bet that he probably got a job at Goldman or morgan as an Ibanker. and if someone at Queens, where Maybe 1 grad lands a job in the states at Goldman, makes over 60k. than I guarantee ppl at what is considered the best business school in the world that sends about 20 ppl/yr to Goldman can make that as well.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'll tell y'all a story.</p>
<p>In 1983, the top student graduating from the Stanford economics undergrad program was offered a starting salary of over a $1 million a year. Yep, that was a STARTING salary. Pretty impressive offer, don't you think, especially when you consider that it was made 23 years ago. That must have been a pretty darn good year for the Stanford economics students. </p>
<p>Of course that guy was none other than John Elway, the #1 overall pick in the NFL draft by the Denver Broncos, a 2-time Pac-10 player of the year, consensus All-American and who finished 2nd in the race for the Heisman Trophy. He became one of the greatest quarterbacks in NFL history, leading the Broncos to 5 Superbowl appearances (winning 2 of them), and named to both the College and NFL Halls of Fame. </p>
<p>That's why it's dangerous to just look at an isolated data point. I would surmise that the guy who is making $150k has some unusual circumstances. Like others here said, maybe he simply got hired by his Dad. Or maybe he's a celebrity, and so got hired simply for the celebrity, similar to how Chelsea Clinton was eagerly courted by all of the top firms in the world (and eventually chose McKinsey) just because all of the top firms in the world wanted to be able to say that they have Chelsea Clinton working for them. Maybe he's the child of a king or some other powerful person, and the firm hires him just to get access to his family. For example, the top banks have hired a conspicuously high number of children of high-ranking Chinese Communist Party members lately.</p>
<p>The point is, to fixate on the guy making the top salary from Queens is the same thing as fixating on the salary of John Elway. Individuals like that are by definition not representative of the norm. John Elway made millions not because he was a brilliant economist, but because he was a brilliant football player. Similarly, one guy who is far above the mean of any given class must have some other attributes that distinguishes him from everybody else. Otherwise, EVERYBODY in the class would be making that kind of money.</p>
<p>"For example, the top banks have hired a conspicuously high number of children of high-ranking Chinese Communist Party members lately."</p>
<p>YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>I really dont find anything wrong that ugly/socially inept will be at a disadvantage at the job.</p>
<p>banking is a SALES JOB for goodness sake. In the upper positions it is al aboutl dealing with managing client relationships.</p>
<p>And i dont find anything wrong that jocks are preferred.</p>
<p>They have a work ethic/good social skills, competitive mindset which is exactly what banks want.</p>
<p>So people who may be socially inept or lacking in the looks department may look into engineering/less social jobs that deal less with client relationships.</p>