Wouldn’t everyone be eligible in a lottery? Wouldn’t you defeat the purpose by setting up hurdles to a lottery system?
Yes.
So is that what people on this thread (and others) who support a lottery are saying? All HS grads, regardless of academics, income, intent to go to college, etc, are in the lottery?
I would argue that the reason top schools are dropping test scores is partly to increase diversity - it makes it more of a lottery by removing hurdles like test scores.
It kind of already is, to a big degree. After a student is qualified (and that means different things to different people), it’s just a bunch of little state lottos or a bunch of zip code lottos (if we’re talking about a regional college), with a little bit of social engineering added in at the end.
I didn’t say that I support a lottery system… Just wanted to point out some fallacies.
We are on the same page. Now we patiently wait for those who support a lottery system to answer who gets to be in the lottery!
Adding, current college admissions are NOT anything like a lottery.
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To be fair, it really isn’t a lottery in that sense.
The girl in my school who got into Harvard was had won a mock trial competition and had won some national poetry contest/performance. She was also student president and had performed in front of some famous people in her instrument of choice.
Oh and she was invited to some UN event in New York where she met some UN officials and spoke to them.
I could have told you before hand that she was getting into Harvard or stood a very good chance.
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That’s actually lower than I would have expected. I know people on financial aid at other ‘elite’ institutions who make far more than 167k. It’s sickening, isn’t it?
She still won the lottery. Not every kid like her is picked by them. She could have just as easily been denied or waitlisted and admitted somewhere else. You can edit and add UN, World Bank, US Congress, Dalai Lama, etc. People in those organizations all know lots of great, highly qualified students.
I’m not complaining about this at all. Life’s not fair. That’s just the reality of the situation. Sometimes, it’s not fair in your favor, other times you might benefit from the unfairness. I’ve been on both sides, and if you think about it, I’m sure you have, too.
The whole premise of the article is ridiculous. I’m probably going to sound like a horrible person, but…
I honestly don’t see what the problem is with elite colleges admitting who they want.
Fancy gyms admit who they want. Oh well, there are regular gyms. You can still get fit. Exclusive clubs admit who they want. Why does it matter? There are other clubs to join. You can still belong to a group. Very wealthy people can buy luxury vacations. There are plenty of great vacations for people who aren’t very wealthy.
And it’s the same with rich private colleges and universities. I have zero problem with these colleges admitting whoever they like. No one makes anyone apply to them. There are MANY fantastic public universities, and people can go there and get educated. People can be successful and have meaningful lives by attending public universities.
Many people want to be in the place that won’t have them, but why? We are jealous creatures. We want what we can’t have. We all want to be “special.”
I fully understand that some people apply to those schools because of their generous FA. That’s not why this article thinks there should be a lottery though. If elite colleges want to have a lottery for FA, that would be a different story.
All these kids who are stressing about getting into tippy top schools are often not getting the right message. High schools and parents need to keep kids grounded in reality. High schools should absolutely cap how many colleges a kid applies to. There can be exceptions for students seeking FA.
Apart from those with financial need, there is NO reason why any kid has to apply to 20+ colleges, and even then, if people do their homework, almost no one needs to apply to so many schools. That is a topic for another thread.
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But that’s where I’m disagreeing.
Those schools know exactly what they’re looking for. It’s perfectly fair (aside from one issue that I have a problem with that I’m not allowed to talk about here but I’m confident it won’t be an issue next year).
100% agree.
Yep. Same as all other ‘let’s have a lottery’ articles/threads!
ETA: It seems many of the lottery supporters have disappeared from this thread 
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To “know what they are looking for” does not make them perfectly fair. And that’s okay!
In fact, nothing in this world is perfectly fair.
I will add this to the lottery discussion. No one is ever forced to accept their offer of admission to an expensive college, no matter what it’s called or how great their kid is.
I saw a great clip on CBS about this yesterday. Look it up. It’s the one with Nate Burleson talking about choosing a college. It should help. Very helpful rule of thumb in it. I say this as someone who knows 3 people who actually graduated from Harvard. Only one of them is actually a great adult, and she’d still be great if she had gone to State U.
So as you’re implying, if it doesn’t really matter, why are people so desperate to get in?
Also, ‘great adult.’ - what is greatness to you?
If this comes across aggressive, that’s not my intention so I apologize in advance lol.
No, that’s not what I am saying at all. I’m saying that just because you are admitted does not mean that you are entitled to attend on the terms you want.
I have empathy, I really do. But I don’t get desperate. I like to stay calm and think things through.
I define greatness as the ability to do something that requires exceptional skill under stressful circumstances over and over.
Most Ivy League grads (like most college graduates or people in general) aren’t going to achieve greatness - most won’t be famous or notable in some way. Yes, many Ivy League grads will have lucrative careers - but so do grads from many different colleges. I live in an area where Ivy League/MIT grads are thick on the ground (many are close friends). None have lives that are appreciably different from their neighbors that graduated from more typical colleges. These type of schools offer a wonderful education, great contacts, top notch facilities etc but attending is no guarantee of anything. Too many mythologize what an Ivy League education is going to do for them - maybe that is why the disappointment is so acute if a kid is rejected.
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I don’t think I ever posted it on here, but I had an idea some years ago (a noteworthy event in my life), so here goes:
SCRAP: Selective College Restrictive Application Program
Goal: Every kid with a 3.9+ GPA (or top 3% if HS has grade deflation) and 1500+/34+ test score who wants to get into a T25ish private U or LAC (so about 50 schools) may do so by entering this program. Normal financial aid measures apply.
Similar to Questbridge, kids rank their schools… maybe 1-10. But instead of just all eight Ivies and Stanford and MIT, like half might want to do, there are three tiers of schools, and they can only choose up to four from each tier. (so 4/3/3 or 4/4/2…).
This would work like an ED app – if accepted and if the school is affordable, they are locked in. That incentivizes the schools to take part, as it will boost yield, saving time and money.
Maybe the kids can choose five schools that really wouldn’t fit them, and exclude them. This would lessen the chances for a bad match.
So if a high-achieving kid wants a guarantee of getting into a top-25ish private, they take part in this program.
Partner schools?
Universities: All eight Ivies, Stanford, MIT, UChicago, Caltech, Duke, Hopkins, Northwestern, CMU, Emory, Georgetown, Notre Dame, Rice, Vanderbilt, Wash U, NYU
LACs: WASP, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Wellesley, Carleton, CMC, Haverford, Wes, Vassar, Hamilton, Wash & Lee, Colgate, Davidson, Colby, Grinnell, Barnard, Smith, Bryn Mawr, Bates, Colorado Coll, Macalester, Harvey Mudd, Oberlin, Kenyon
…something like that
If a kid scored poorly on tests, maybe they can sub multiple AP test scores of 5. I’m sure there would be common caveats.
Obviously if every qualifying kid made this commitment, there wouldn’t be enough spots at these schools. But most would probably not sign up because it would be restrictive. (my guess)
Could that be feasible?
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I mean we’re definitely engaging in hypotheticals that would never happen lol.
But what would the problem be that it’s solving?
Private elite colleges are benefiting from the number of applications.
I agree with your post. But IMO the perceived problem is caused by:
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The special focus by the media and the entertainment industry on a small set of private elite schools (on TV and in movies the smartest kids are headed to MIT, Harvard, Caltech, …), it’s almost always a Harvard or Princeton professor that’s quoted as a subject matter expert in an article, etc. The message that’s repeatedly reinforced is: “these are the colleges the best and brightest should go to. Any other college is a major step down”. Hence the frenzy around admissions to these elite colleges.
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Not recognizing that these private elites are, in fact, private businesses. People think of them as true non profits serving a public good, and therefore think everyone deserves a “fair chance” to get in. No one expects this of country clubs for example, because everyone recognizes them as private businesses that can operate as they wish (within legal limits).
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I think that your point #2 is especially salient. Also, there is a fundamental misunderstanding among some applicants (and their parents) about the mission of elite schools - which is not (contrary to popular opinion) just to enroll the academic elite. Elite schools have a suite of other institutional priorities they want to meet - as outsiders, applicants are in the dark about what those are (beyond the basics like legacy, recruited athlete etc).
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