<p>give me three good reasons...........</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Tight housing situation</p></li>
<li><p>Relatively small number of students studying abroad for a semester, and thus few beds freed up for transferees;</p></li>
<li><p>Administrative decision not to "program in" space for transfers.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Golly, Byerly, why in such a sour mood?</p>
<p>It's all fine and well to do your Harvard-dance to win cross admits by subtly (yeah, I know the old party line: "I would never dissuade anyone from attending Princeton nor have I said that it is anything other than a fine institution") misrepresenting the Princeton student body/administration, but usually, you tag a few half-relevant citations along, too.</p>
<p>But no citations or evidence this time? How very unscholarly of a Harvard man.</p>
<p>To the OP:</p>
<p>To answer your question, please check out this:
<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/admissions/u/transfer.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/pr/admissions/u/transfer.html</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Because of larger than expected first-year enrollments, coupled with a very low attrition rate, Princeton is unable to offer a transfer admission process.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm very sorry, by the way, that will not be able to attend Princeton this fall. I'm sure, though, that you can do very well wherever you go. Good luck in your future academic endeavors!</p>
<p>Despite the announced "policy" of not accepting transfers, Princeton does make exceptions for quality athletes here and there. For example, on the current football roster is one Bill Foran, who began his college career as a quarterback on the Purdue University squad, before transferring to Princeton.</p>
<p>
[quote]
2. Relatively small number of students studying abroad for a semester, and thus few beds freed up for transferees;
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is completely untrue -- according to Princeton administration, a third of all students study for at least one semester abroad.</p>
<p>The real reason Princeton doesn't allow transfers is that Princeton requires all undergraduates to complete a junior thesis (JP) and a senior thesis in order to graduate. A transfer student would be much less likely to be able to handle the independent work right off the bat than a four-year student who has worked with these professors for two years already. Who are they going to ask to become thesis advisers? Transfer students won't know anybody, won't have the right preparation...</p>
<p>At Harvard or Yale, the thesis is optional. A transfer student can just go in, take the remainder of the required classes, and graduate. Can't do that at Princeton.</p>
<p>"June 13, 2004 -- A pair of former Highland Park quarterbacks are on the move this summer, with Alexander Webb likely headed back to Northwestern after transferring last month to SMU, and Bill Foran expected to leave Purdue...</p>
<p>Foran, who signed with Purdue in February of 2003 after succeeding Webb in the Scots backfield, may be headed for I-AA Princeton if he leaves West Lafayette, Ind. The 6-3, 201-pound Foran redshirted last season at quarterback but was moved during the Boilermakers spring practice to running back." </p>
<p>For more on Foran, and the messy story of a basketball transfer from UCLA named Gloger, see the famed Columbia Spectator article captioned (rather too optimistically from the Columbia point of view!) "The Fall of Princeton Athletics":</p>
<p>It really does relate to the lack of available beds, which is largely a factor of the number of students studying abroad. At Harvard, that number tripled between 2001 and 2004-5.</p>
<p>And compare a Princetonian story noting that Princeton's study abroad numbers "lag behind other universities."</p>
<p>Nobody likes to leave Princeton once they get there:). Study abroad is possible. Me, at the age of 18 I got a summer job in the Dordogne area of France as a camp counselor via Princeton-in-France, a program that still exists and finds students who speak French summer jobs....Ahh. The sun. The fields of coquelicot....</p>
<p>But I really don't know why Princeton doesn't allow transfers:). Frozen-tears - did you get that info from the website somewhere?</p>
<p>Nope, got it from admitted students' chat.</p>
<p>Hm... it could even have been half of all students rather than a third, but better to underestimate than to overestimate. ;)</p>
<p>As for preparedness for the theses, it's virtually identical to the argument for why Princeton is reluctant to give advanced standing and why students who qualify for a year of advanced standing are advised not to take it.</p>
<p>Oh, and by the way, there have been applicants (even on CC) who were already in college when they reapplied to Princeton as freshmen, forfeiting all of their college units completed. That doesn't count as transferring.</p>
<p>Sure, sure. A common technique with athletic transfers (and Princeton is not alone in using it, even in the Ivy League) is either to start them over as freshmen or otherwise hold them over an extra year in order to get the full benefit of their services for four years. Sort of the Ivy version of "red-shirting."</p>
<p>The "instead of transferring reapply as a freshman" trick would work to get around princetons no transfer policy, but I don't see how it would reset an athlete's clock on eligibility.</p>
<p>unless of course the player sat out their freshman year at their original school.</p>
<p>edit- oh, i get it, they redshirt somewhere else and then reapply as a pton freshman. clever.</p>
<p>Byerly--The Daily Princetonian article you cited said that Harvard had 99 students studying abroad and Princeton had 122 (111 plus an additional 11). Certainly, as of the time of the article, it doesn't seem as if Harvard students were rushing to study abroad.</p>
<p>As to why Princetonians don't go abroad as much as some other schools, I think that Alumother is correct. A number of Princeton students I have spoken with simply don't want to leave Princeton. They love the school and feel that there are more courses they want to take and they don't want to spend three months off campus. Interestingly enough, I have spoken with a few administrators as well, and they would like to increase the number of students studying abroad, but so far the students generally seem to prefer to stay on campus.</p>
<p>The Princetonian article was simply wrong. It picked numbers from different years, and confused term-time numbers with the more inflated figures including those who attend summer programs only.</p>
<p>That Alumother line is typical horse manure - and echoes the rationalizations offered at Harvard, also, before they hired the lady from Wesleyan to make the program work.</p>
<p>By coincidence, there's an article in the YDN today about the topic - explaining steps to remove impediments to the program in order to incourage growth.</p>
<p>Places that have served as a model - like Dartmouth and Wesleyan - have shown it <em>can</em> be done, and when a school decides its educationally important it <em>will</em> be done.</p>
<p>"Interestingly enough, I have spoken with a few administrators as well, and they would like to increase the number of students studying abroad, but so far the students generally seem to prefer to stay on campus."</p>
<p>I'll bet a lot of Princeton students do summer abroad programs.
That's the case at Yale, also, where fewer students take a semester abroad than many other schools. When kids are very involved in campus and community activities as they are at both of these campuses, it's easier to stay put for the school year and use your summer to travel.
Yale and Harvard may take transfers, but VERY few. A handful. So it's not a very viable option. Many Yale majors have senior projects and thesis papers, too, but it's not about that. They don't have room, because so few leave.</p>
<p>The idea that fewer leave Princeton than Harvard is not born out by the facts. </p>
<p>Although more Harvard students may take a "gap'" year or a year off (it is official policy to encourage both for sound educational reasons), it remains true that a higher percentage of matriculants graduate from Harvard than from any college or university in the United States of America.</p>
<p>A school either <em>wants</em> to encourage international study (by which we do not mean merely a typical student summer trip to France, Italy, Spain etc., ) or it does not; it either sees the value of a limited number of motivated transfers or it does not. If you want to make these programs work, it can be done.</p>
<p>Um, who said anything about graduation rates? I was just commenting on the fact that Princeton students seem to enjoy staying on campus, because of the wealth of opportunities available. I agree with A.S.A.P. that many of the Princeton students, like Yale students, probably go abroad during the summer. I don't necessarily believe that having a high percentage of students studying abroad during the school year is the hallmark of an excellent school or education. It is important to experience diverse cultures at some point in life, but there is also much to be learned from having an intense on-campus undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>Yoyu are entitled to your opinion, but I am merely saying that claiming "our students love it here so much they don't want to leave" is a total crock ... a standard rationalization by those who haven't bestirred themselves to make a program work - either summer or term-time.</p>
<p>COMPARE: <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=506943%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=506943</a>
<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511263%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511263</a></p>
<p>I have been at Princeton about 6 times in the past year and spoken with numerous students and a few administrators. In every conversation I had with students about studying abroad, they have indicated that they preferred to stay on campus. The administrators have never said anything similar to "our students love it here so much. . . ". Rather they have indicated that they would like more students to study abroad, but I personally didn't get the impression that it was a huge priority at this point. </p>
<p>I don't quite see how these student conversations and this preference for staying on campus can be deemed a "total crock" or as you so charmingly put it, "horse manure". They really happened, students really enjoy Princeton, it's a great school. As I have said before, Harvard is also an excellent school and I personally do not feel the need to read its paper on a daily basis to see if there's anything in it I can use against it. Kids who have a choice of both schools, or in fact of any of the top 10-15 schools are fortunate. Colleges today are overall much better and have many more resources than they did when I went to school and that's a great thing for both parents and students.</p>
<p>Byerly - maybe it's hard for you to fathom, but my dauaghter actually does feel that she doesn't want to miss even one semester from her residency at Yale...too many courses and not enough time in four years, to take everthing she wants to take. That, along with a very engaged on-campus life just makes it not worth it - especially when there are three entire months to study abroad during the summers. A lot of students have jobs they don't want to give up, service activities that have a schedule they need to follow, sports they can't nor want to abandon, and no compelling reason to leave when you can easily go in the summers. Yale gives the summer study abroad students very good financial help - and not just the kids on financial aid. Mine received a full grant to study in South America last summer, and she'll do the same this year. It's not that hard.
Undergrad years are very short. By the time you factor in winter and spring break and Thanksgiving week, you have not quite 8 months of classes a year as it is. Some kids who feel really grateful and privileged to be at their schools don't want to miss a semester, especially if your department will pay your way for a summer of study, field work, or travel. Why not have both?<br>
My point is that it's not all about students needs not being met, but rather the demand not really being there (for "term" travel abroad). I imagine this is true for many Harvard students, too.</p>