Why would anyone go to a prestigious college?

<p>All prestigious schools are not created equal. A place like Dartmouth, with small class size and a strong focus on undergraduate teaching, offers both prestige and the opportunity for engagement. </p>

<p>Here’s something else to consider: just as the students who attend prestigious research universities are high-achievers, so are the professors! There is zero reason to assume that because they are stars in their field and have important research projects to oversee, they don’t have the time or interest to interact with lowly students. Is it so hard to envision that these super smart individuals might also be excellent time managers, just like their students? The professors I had who were the most personable and approachable, tended to be the most prolific in publications too. </p>

<p>I can’t speak for every top school, but my D who’s at a prestigious research university, has as much access to profs as she wants. Furthermore, the much maligned sections taught by TA’s do not replace class time with the professor. They are in addition to those hours. D therefore gets much more teaching time than her brother did at his LAC style school.</p>

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<p>There is quite a lot of reason to assume exactly that. People do what they are rewarded for. Professors at research universities are rewarded (pay/prestige/tenure) for doing research and publishing papers, not for teaching undergraduates.</p>

<p>That’s not just my opinion. Andrew Roberts, who has some experience at so-called “top” universities (graduate work at Princeton, on the faculty at Northwestern):</p>

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<p>Nor is it just his unsupported opinion:</p>

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<p>[Three</a> tips from The Thinking Student’s Guide to College: 75 Tips for Getting a Better Education by Andrew Roberts](<a href=“Three tips from The Thinking Student's Guide to College: 75 Tips for Getting a Better Education by Andrew Roberts”>Three tips from The Thinking Student's Guide to College: 75 Tips for Getting a Better Education by Andrew Roberts)</p>

<p>Are there exceptions? Surely. But they are exceptions.</p>

<p>Lawrence M. Aleamoni (in Student Rating Myths Versus Research Facts From 1924 to 1998 examines the relationship between good instruction and good research. Here is his summary of the research on this issue:

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<p>Aleamoni does not cite any finding of a negative correlation between research productivity and teaching effectiveness. So on that basis, it would appear that there is zero reason to assume that just because they are stars in their field and have important research projects to oversee, professors are not effective teachers.</p>

<p>Well, yes, you could interpret the findings that way.</p>

<p>But here’s another interpretation.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The prestige of research universities is based on the quantity and quality of the research performed by their professors.</p></li>
<li><p>People go to prestigious research universities because of their prestige and because they believe that prestige equates to educational quality.</p></li>
<li><p>But there is no correlation between the quality and quantity of research and teaching effectiveness.</p></li>
<li><p>Hence, there is no correlation between prestige and teaching effectiveness.</p></li>
<li><p>Therefore, people are choosing prestigious research universities for a quality that research shows does not exist.</p></li>
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<p>Re: Teaching at large research universities vs. LACs.</p>

<p>I have a lot of experience from many years of my own education, my children’s education, and my work in college environments from large research universities to small liberal arts colleges. I have seen the same thing over and over:</p>

<p>First, while there are some large classes (including some very large classes) at large universities, most upper level classes and many introductory courses are NOT large classes. Students taking a lot of Chemistry/Sociology/Psychology/Biology 101 will be in a number of large classes. Students going in with tons of AP credit may never be in a large class.</p>

<p>Second, TAs are usually concentrated in the following: science labs, recitation sessions for professor-taught large classes, and levels 1-4 language classes. Those TAs vary in ability from the “I can’t understand anything he says” (some of the foreign-born math and science) ones to the “She is going to be one of the best professors in her field” ones. (Note: Where do you think all those LAC professors got their start? Why, they worked as TAs at large research universities. :slight_smile: )</p>

<p>Third, good and not-so-good teachers are at both types of schools. There are stellar professors at large universities, just as there are duds at LACs – and, of course, vice versa. I had a number of professors who were well-known both for their publishing output and for their outstanding teaching ability. They poured their enthusiasm for what they researched into their classes.</p>

<p>So, what’s the difference? It’s the student. What does the student want to experience? What kind of person is he/she? What does he/she want to put into college? A student who is very independent, energized by personal challenge, highly self-motivated, and looking to make connections for graduate school might thrive at a large university and feel restless and too limited at an LAC. A student who is looking for close, nurturing relationships with faculty, would like to be in a place that “feels like family,” and who needs a little to a lot more personal encouragement might thrive at a small LAC and feel overwhelmed and lost at a large university. It’s not just an introvert/extrovert distinction. Some introverts do well at large universities; some extroverts prefer smaller environments.</p>

<p>My daughter has as much professor time as she wants at a large research university. In the two larger classes that she has taken, she has stayed after class to ask questions and has gone to office hours. Most professors encourage students to drop by and are delighted to get to know them, but the students have to take the initiative at a large university. Some don’t and get lost in the crowd. My daughter, however, is now close to a number of professors in her department and is making important contacts for graduate school. She thrives at her university in a way that she probably wouldn’t at a small LAC. That high-energy, big-school environment motivates her. She is studying under professors who are at the top of their fields (i.e. they actually did “write the book” on a certain topic), and they have been good teachers as well as researchers.</p>

<p>I have another child who is not well-suited for that kind of environment. The better fit will be a school that emphasizes “You can’t get lost here”/“We’re like a family”/“Faculty members invite their classes over for meals”/etc. A small, nurturing school in a very close community would be ideal.</p>

<p>Neither environment is objectively better than the other. One may be far better, however, for a given student.</p>

<p>That’s a valid observation, IMO - and Andrew Roberts, who I quoted above, makes the same point in his book - but LAC-vs.-BigU is really another issue. The thread is really about the value of prestige. Both the LAC and big university sets have prestigious institutions and less-prestigious institutions. At least in the big university world, prestige is based on quality and quantity of research. I’m not sure the extent to which this is true among LACs.</p>

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<p>While his overall point is that professors send their kids to LACs more than other parents, the whole point about ‘prestige’ is undermined when you look at 3 of the top 6–Stanford, Duke, and U of Chicago. Hardly unknown, non-elite LACs, and schools that you’ll find in the top 20 of US News Word Reports. </p>

<p>For the LACs on the list, again, Carleton is a a top 10 LAC by US News, and Oberlin also highly ranked.</p>

<p>OP,
Your question is NOT stated correctly and based on assumptions, not facts:</p>

<p>"Let’s say I get into Harvard, where I know I’ll get below a 3.0 GPA. Compare that with a 3.8+ GPA from a state school. "
-if you are getting belo a 3.0 at Harvard, there is no way under the sun that with the same type of effort and attitude, you will get 3.8+ at state UG.
If you state your question in other way, I may have an input as my D. is currently second year Med. Student.</p>

<p>So if I have a kid who has the chops to get into a prestigious institution (presumably, many college professors do) … and I believe the quality of education at that prestigious institution is neither better nor worse than at a less-prestigious institution (not a given, but in the feasible set) … and my personal prestige will be enhanced if my kid goes to the more prestigious school (a likely outcome) …</p>

<p>I would like to offer a real life example which I think is easily extrapolated to a more general case. My kid is at a very prestigious top STEM university, his friend is at a highly regarded top state research U. As freshmen, they both took a very advanced math class which is usually taken by upper class undergraduates. Their classes used the exact same book. My kid’s class was taught by the professor who wrote the book and who is a leading figure in his field of mathematics (incidentally, he was an excellent teacher</p>

<p>What is far more important, however, is what was covered in the class. My kid’s class covered half of the book in one semester, but his friend’s class covered only about a third if not less. The reason is not because the professor at the state U was unable to teach the material, it is because the level of the students in that math class at the state U was just not up to par of my kid’s U. </p>

<p>When you pool together the top student in the world into one student body, you have a different environment in which to teach. These kids are able to process the material so much quicker and better, that going at a very fast pace is not only possible, it is necessary. </p>

<p>When my kid was trying to decide where to go to college, we asked for advice from a family friend who happens to be a math professor at the above mentioned state U. He told us exactly the same thing - it’s not the professors, it’s the students who really make the difference. </p>

<p>I have to add that while my kid is doing undergraduate research, he is seeking advice from professors who are leaders in their fields. That’s not a small perk.</p>

<p>Ok, I’m going to break my rule and reply. My son is at a major research state.university, is majoring in a STEM subject and doing very well. Yeah, its probably true that the courses (particularly the lower level courses) at top STEM schools are tougher than the ones he took. But so what? In terms of tangible results, I would doubt VERY much if the employment prospects for most of the students at Borgbege’s S’s university are any better than his. In addition, the professors at his school LOVE their high achieving students. He has had all sorts of opportunities in that regard (BTW, major state universities often have people who are at the very top of their fields). In addition, he has had the opportunity to participate in all sorts of things that are unique to big university life.</p>

<p>I could go on, but why bother? The point is that really able, highly motivated kids are going to have great success wherever they go.</p>

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<p>That’s it on the nose. My son was tired of taking math and science classes at a level where he never had to prepare for a test or even open the textbook – both in high school and at the local state university (dual enrollment and one gap-year class). Now he is indeed being challenged and will remain more engaged because of it. And, for what it’s worth, his faculty advisor is recognized as the co-founder of the concept of hypertext, the basis of today’s web – how great is that for a CS major?</p>

<p>What makes you think you will get a lower GPA at Harvard?</p>

<p>Harvard is full of grade inflation</p>

<p>cbreeze. Good for her. </p>

<p>All FA from Perelman (Penn) is need based, just like Yale. Currently, there is zero merit aid from the school itself. This was the situation in 2010, too. Earlier? Can’t say with 100% certainty. </p>

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<p>cbreeze. HMS is even more clear.</p>

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This was the situation in 2010, also.</p>

<p>All these anecdotes are touching, but they don’t answer the oft-repeated question: If there are educational advantages to attending a prestigious university (or LAC), why haven’t 30 years of research studies been able to detect any?</p>

<p>a paper like that would be a piece of junk. why is it so hard to see the obvious?</p>

<p>To answer the OP’s question (and I admit I did not read the whole thread), lots of reasons. One reason might be fit. We talk a lot about fit on CC and sometime a prestigious school is the right fit for a lot of reasons. Maybe it’s a particular program the school offers – for example the Core instruction at Columbia or U Chicago or the school of Hotel Management at Cornell. Maybe it’s being around a lot of people who are intellectual peers or have a shared interest – you might be around a lot of cool STEM people at MIT that will make for a different experience than the local state school. Sometimes it’s financial aid – some of the most prestigious schools offer far better aid than a less prestigious school can because of big endowments and sometimes they are financially a better choice than a state school. Sometimes it’s the chance to go out of state and experience something completely different. Sometimes it’s the chance to take classes from people who are the top people in the world in their field. Those people are often at prestigious schools. It’s a personal decision. And frankly asking why anyone would want to go to one is sort of like asking why anyone would want to drive a particular type of car. Sure a prestigious school is not for everyone. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t for anyone. Just like a religious school might not be for everyone but is the right place for some people. That’s what’s great about all the choices for education in this country. I just cannot understand why some people feel the need to discount the choices of others.</p>

<p>Whether or not Top U or State U researchers teach any classes- depends on policies at the particular school. Can’t generalize. No point in assuming. Gotta a check the schools- not hard, with courses listed online. Need to look into the interests and strengths of those profs. Need to understand whether a kid is driven or has limits.</p>

<p>Any study which purports to determine the diffs between “educational advantages” is looking at averages. While a highly qualified and motivated kid can thrive anywhere, not all kids can. Some need the competition, others need their own pace. In my mind, the Q would be: what would best serve MY kid? Don’t choose based on assumptions, in either direction.</p>

<p>But OP is saying, wouldn’t thrive academically at H, could at a statie. And asking, theoretically, which will look better in senior year, when she applies for med or grad school.</p>

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<p>I just have to comment on the silliness of presuming to judge the value of a paper that you’ve not read or, even less reasonable, a paper that hasn’t yet been written! </p>

<p>I’m 100 percent aligned with mimk6. I also particularly like what lookingforward says about “averages.” As he or she suggests, “What would best serve MY kid?” is the question parents should ask. The corollary for the student is, “What’s best for ME?” (lookingforward: Are you an M or an F? If you’re not telling, that’s cool … I am assuming you are a woman, but it occurs to me I have no reason to do so.)</p>