<p>I guess I really don't know what you mean by "fall through the cracks" here. I thought you were complaining about the tuition disparity, but it seems there's something else you're unhappy with. Could you elaborate on that? Are you a current OOS student at UNC?</p>
<p>Also, I don't think it's appropriate to compare UNC to "your average state school." Isn't UNC's out-of-state tuition 5K-10K lower than that of its top public peers, such as UVA, Michigan, and Berkeley?</p>
<p>
[quote]
yes, i agree. the disparity, however, is greater at UNC than the average state school, and also the average state school relies on state funding more than UNC does, therefore making a disparity of any kind justified.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>armcp: You need to do some research. Do you know why UNC caps its OOS to 18%? It's precisely because the UNC system receives ~40% of its funding from state taxpayers. Compare that to UVA, which accepts ~30% OOS, and receives only ~10% of its funding from the state of VA. (That's just one example; there are many others.)</p>
<p>In addition, any OOS merit or athletic scholarship recipient is considered in-state for tuition purposes. That means that all those scholarships become full freight for out-of-state students. Previously, only the Morehead and the Robertson were full freight scholarships; now, given recent NC legislation, all those OOS scholarships that were once partial, are now full-freight. Do you know who is picking up the tab for that? Yep-- it's NC taxpayers. And did you know that the equivalent scholarships for in-state students are awarded at their same amounts? (ie, Davie is $5K for in-state; now full freight for OOS; Carolina Scholars is ~7K for instate, but full-fright for their OOS counterpart, etc.) Trust me when I tell you that these in-state students are academically comparable to their OOS counterparts-- in every way.</p>
<p>Finally, you need to take a good look at the costs for comparable top publics: UMichigan; UVA; Berkeley; UCLA, and others -- for both in-state and out-of-state. I think you will find that they are more expensive than UNC-CH.</p>
<p>
[quote]
. . . A LOT of them fall through the cracks, and no one at the university seems to give a damn.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Do you mean "fall through the cracks" academically? Can you give some examples?</p>
<p>Let me also add that the top 25% of in-state students at UNC are absolutely on a par academically with the out-of-state students. Many actually have better stats. If you need me to prove that to you with statistics, just let me know, and I'll be happy to provide that for you.</p>
<p>Given that you believe OOS are so superior, how could one possibly "fall through the cracks?" That would seem to be a contradiction. ??</p>
<p>After a quick search, I saw that armcp made a post in January where he said he was currently a student at Tulane. So-- looks like he/she isn't even a student at UNC. I really have to wonder about someone who would make such assertions about a school he/she doesn't attend and never has, by all accounts. What's the point??</p>
<p>If you get into Berkeley OOS, go for it, it's worth the 5k tuition difference.</p>
<p>Because it's cheaper and the people are not self-righteous rich pricks.</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>Let's just ignore the OP's lower intelligence level remark for a second. What about the other part? What about all the in-staters knowing each other. Is it hard for an OOS to fit in? I mean the fact that the OOS is capped...does that make it harder? I'm sure many of you are in state, but do you have OOS friends who've made the transition? </p>
<p>UNC is one of the few schools I'm applying to where I don't know anyone. I'm applying OOS and I am worried about the transition. I really appreciate what the university offers, but the social transition is very important to me.</p>
<p>Nah, it's definitely not harder. Honestly, a lot of out of staters stick together, but I still have a lot of in state friends too. Be outgoing, GO TO THE OUT OF STATE SOCIAL seriously, that's where I met a majority of my friends. As an OOSer, it's really not bad at all, I promise.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you get into Berkeley OOS, go for it, it's worth the 5k tuition difference.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Is this a joke? I can't tell. Total cost for in-state at Berkeley is $25,308. For OOS, you should add non-resident tuition at $19,620 to the above-- which makes total OOS cost around $45,000 (according to their website). So where does the OOS save the $5K at Berkeley? </p>
<p>Berkeley is obviously an excellent school, ranked the #1 public. It is, of course, a much larger school than UNC, including its undergraduate population. And if percentage of out-of-state students is a concern, you might want to research what the percentage of OOS at Berkeley is. (hint: much less than 18%).</p>
<p>um what? UC's tuition is 45k? someone enlighten me please.</p>
<p>and janie, i think vc is from cali, which could possibly explain why she said it was a 5k increase.</p>
<p>Last time I checked for Berkeley, it was like 18k for in-state and 40k for out of state. Something like that. You can establish residency and pay instate fees though after the first year, something like that.</p>
<p>^Only if you can prove that you are financially independent, take steps to establish residency and prove to their satisfaction that you are not in California solely for purposes of attending school.</p>
<p>From Berkeley's website:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Average student budget 2007-08*</p>
<p>*Subject to change.</p>
<p>Registration and fees: $ 8,384
Housing, Food, utilities: 13,848 (if living off campus, estimated $9,340)
Books/Supplies 1,234
Personal Expenses 1,264
Transportation 578 (if living off campus, estimated $976)</p>
<p>Total: $ 25,308 (in-state resident)</p>
<p><em>Estimated budget; subject to change.
*</em>Non-resident tuition add $19,620.</p>
<p>An additional fee is charged for selected residence halls.
[/quote]
Check Berkeley.edu/Admissions</p>
<p>I have no idea what their rules are about establishing residency. This is very difficult to do in NC; CA may be easier, but I would be surprised.</p>
<p>I have to go do some real work now, but checking websites is really useful-- rather than relying on anecdotes.</p>
<p>Establishing residency for tuition purposes, from Berkeley website:</p>
<p>
[quote]
For Students Seeking Resident Classification</p>
<p>To be classified as a resident for tuition purposes, an adult student (18 years or older by the residence determination date for the applicable semester) who is a US citizen or an eligible noncitizen must have: 1) relinquished his/her prior residence and 2) been physically present and established residence in California for more than one (1) year immediately preceding the residence determination date. The residence of a minor is derived from the parent(s) with whom the minor last resided.</p>
<p>Physical presence alone is NOT sufficient. An adult student must DOCUMENT that his/her year of physical presence in this state is consistent with his/her intention to make California his/her permanent home. If these steps are delayed, resident status will be postponed until ALL the criteria have been demonstrated for a minimum of one (1) year. Physical presence in California solely for educational purposes does not result in classification as a California resident under State Law, regardless of the length of stay. The student must also demonstrate financial independence.</p>
<p>Evidence of the following criteria of intent must be provided. Documents must be DATED to verify the appropriate action was taken at least one (1) year prior to the beginning of the semester in which the resident status is desired.</p>
<p>General Rules Applying to Minors</p>
<p>If you are an unmarried minor (under age 18), the residence of the parent with whom you live is considered your residence. If you have a parent living, you cannot change your residence by your own act, by the appointment of a legal guardian, or by the relinquishment of a parent's right of control. If you live with neither parent, your residence is that of the parent with whom you last lived. Unless you are a minor alien present in the U.S. under the terms of a nonimmigrant status which precludes you from establishing domicile in the U.S., you may establish your own residence when both your parents are deceased and a legal guardian has not been appointed. If you derive California residence from a parent, that residence must satisfy the one-year durational requirement.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As in NC, it would appear that to obtain CA residency status, your parents would have to move to CA, work there, pay taxes, etc., at least a year before you apply for school there. At least, that's the way I read this.</p>
<p>mdebater</p>
<p>There have been many other posters here who have all made terrific points about why UNC over other seemingly "more prestigious schools."</p>
<p>I'll add my two cents and echo a few others as well.</p>
<p>You will learn in an introductory statistics class that statistics/numbers can be made to say whatever you want them to say. </p>
<p>As others have stated the top 25% of in-state students are as strong academically as the OOS student body. When you consider that that represents about 1000 in-state students plus the 500-600 OOS students and you have over 1/3 of the class or about 1500-1600 VERY strong students in the freshman class. When you compare that to Yale where there are 1300 in a class or other Ivies and "more prestigious' schools, the number of "top" students at UNC is about the same or higher. There are certainly as many if not more VERY strong students in the freshman class at UNC as there are at Duke.</p>
<p>Do NOT kid yourself into thinking that you are going to be surrounded by students not as smart as you think you are.</p>
<p>My S turned down many "top schools" including Yale to attend UNC. His circle of friends is full of "amazing and super smart and talented kids"....his words, not mine ......</p>
<p>As someone else said, leave the attitude behind or you won't fit into UNC. The BIG difference at UNC is that the really smart kids don't wear it on their sleeves. don't have attitude and are more than willing to help each other....it is NOT an uber competitive but more cooperative atmosphere where people want to help each other.</p>
<p>Add that to a work hard/ play hard environment and the BEST college town in America and you have a very hard to beat combination.</p>
<p>Just for comparison, Notre Dame is a very good school, pretty campus, full of traditions but VERY conservative with rules and regulations involving dorm life, hours for women students (curfews) etc that are a world apart from life at UNC.</p>
<p>Janie: The tuition for UC Berkely listed on their site is around 44k for the first year. Please note that about 3,000 of that is if you decide to take up the university health plan, and for meals not included in your meal plan. So realistically it is around 40-41k for OOS students the first year w/o extra expenses. This cost significantly decreases over the next 4 years, as many students choose to live off-campus, and take up their own cooking, lowering the cost to around 35k. This is all w/o financial aid, grants, scholarships, etc., btw.</p>
<p>I simply think generally speaking, the IS/OOS students at Cal and UCLA are of very similar quality. Now I'm not in on this whole debate about who's smarter, IS or OOS students, bc, to be honest, I'm not worried about that. UNC is an excellent school, and since IS students make up the majority, those students must be a large reason why it is so great.</p>
<p>STRICTLY score-wise, the average score IS at UC Berkeley is a 2100 on the SAT, and 3.94 unweighted GPA. OOS students usually have a 2200+ SAT, and similar GPA; they're your HYPS admits. This explains the low-quantity of OOS students at Cal and UCLA: few are qualified enough to get in (I have a friend with a 2350 SAT, published author, National Merit Scholar rejected OOS at Cal). This year Cal's projected acceptance rate is 20%.</p>
<p>I have a ton of friends at Cal right now, and all of them are loving it. Likewise, all of you seem to be loving UNC. But strictly from an unbiased POV, I just think UCB would be hard to pass up if admitted OOS. Its international reputation is on level with HYS, last year alone it produced 3 Nobel Prize winners, students there have discovered 17 periodic elements, and it has more top-10 depts. than any other university in the country. If I were smart enough to get in OOS, I'd want to study with those type of people. Strictly from a prestige point of view (not that you should choose a college solely on that), Berkeley is ahead of UNC in the academia world, though don't take it as a slight to UNC, bc UNC is pretty much ahead of everyone else, and on par with UVA, UCLA, and UMich.</p>
<p>I do live in CA, so you are probably all saying "well, why don't you just go there?" The answer is just that I want a change, I've grown up with Berkeley/UCLA alums my whole life, and they are great people. But I need something different. So I applied to UNC, bc it is an extraordinary place, with extraordinary people. Sometimes, there are just too many good schools!</p>
<p>mdebater... I think your question, although poorly stated and quite arrogant, is legit... Why UNC? </p>
<p>My D was accepted at 9 out of the 11 she applied to...(on hindsite, she applied to too many... but it was our first time doing this). She was waitlisted at UPenn and we decided that she shouldn't go to an Ivy League for her undergraduate degree, even if she was accepted, bc it was her first time away from home and all that. I wanted it to be a good experience for her rather than cut-throat academics. She got a good financial aid package from UM and a great one from UNC... we decided to go with the package and the weather... since both universities seemed to offer the same quality academics. Being from overseas, we never visited a campus. </p>
<p>We couldn't have made a better choice. After a difficult beginning going from a major city to a small residential campus, she is just in love with Chapel Hill. I was suprised when she recently told me she thinks she'll stay at Chapel Hill next Winter Break, because I was under the impression she wanted to get away from "such a small town," and she said, "Well, Mom, CH grows on you..." I'm afraid I might have a difficult time getting her away from there when she graduates!</p>
<p>So.. no regrets at all! She is in a safe town, has a great dorm, great roommates, a great job, and great professors.</p>
<p>PS. She is one of those OOS/international students... extremely high achiever... but you should probably know she's not finding the classes very easy! She really has put her nose to the grindstone!</p>
<p>vc08: I never said Berkeley wasn't a great university. I think we all agree that it is. I will say, though, that many people believe Berkeley is better suited for graduate/professional school than for undergraduate, for many raesons. I do think that's where UNC might surpass Berkeley. UNC has done a truly outstanding job of providing a very strong undergraduate experience (and all that this implies), despite its obvious strengths as a research university and in its graduate/professional programs. UNC also has ~17,000 undergraduates, compared to Berkeley's ~23,000. I honestly don't know how many of Berkeley's Nobel prize winners are teaching undergraduates, but that's another topic altogether.</p>
<p>At any rate, I was responding to your post (or somebody's) that one would save money ($5K?) by going to Berkeley as an out-of-state student. You are correct about housing. I forgot that Berkeley doesn't guarantee housing for all 4 years. Nevertheless, I got the cost for attending Berkeley from their website. They estimate on-campus housing (food and utilities) at $13,848; off-campus housing (food and utilities) at $9340. That's a savings of $4,508 (if my math is correct). So, okay, that still makes it ~$40K for an out of state student the last 3 years (if living off-campus), not ~$45K, which is the cost for the first year. Again, how is that saving $5K over going to UNC as an OOS? </p>
<p>Non-resident tuition/fees at UNC-CH for 2007-08 is $19,353 (compared to Berkeley's non-resident tuition of $19,620). Total cost for a UNC-CH non-resident (from UNC's website) for 2007-08 is $32,004 (room and board is listed as ~$7600). UNC does guarantee housing for all 4 years, though most go off-campus after the first 2 years). Perhaps they save money going off-campus, too; I'm not sure. </p>
<p>Am I missing something in that calculation? As pointed out above, to gain CA in-state residency is no easy proposition. So, again, how does one save money as an OOS at Berkeley, compared to an OOS at UNC?</p>
<p>You can compare scores all you want; my post above was to point out that Berkeley, for an instate student, or for an out-of-state student, is more expensive than UNC (for in-state or out-of-state). UNC also has excellent financial aid, including Carolina Covenant, and merit scholarships.</p>
<p>Truth be told, from a "prestige point of view," if prestige were the sole motivating factor for me, then I'd choose an Ivy (and make that only HYP) before I'd go for <em>any</em> public university, no matter how many Nobel prize winners and periodic element discoverers they boast, but that's just me. I'm happy to say, though, prestige has never been much of a motivator for me-- in either choice of universities or cars. :)</p>
<p>vc08,</p>
<p>I don't think anyone questions that Cal is a great school with a fine reputation. However, the numbers you quoted relate to admitted students, not those who actually enrolled. You would find that the 25th and 75th percentiles for enrolled students at Cal and UNC are not markedly different. Overall, both schools have strong and talented students.</p>
<p>FWIW, the low percentage of OOS students at Cal (and at least some of the other California system colleges) is not a function of the lack of qualified applicants. It is a function of a policy decision limiting the number of out of state students, i.e. the same reason UNC has a similar limitation. With respect to your friend, I suspect that UNC has chosen not to offer admission to someone seemingly as qualified. It happens; it is not all about the numbers.</p>
<p>Janie: no, I realize your questioned pertained to cost. I kinda mentioned your name in the beginning, but the rest of the post was simply a general observation from someone very familiar with the UC system, not specifically directed at you.</p>
<p>Again, it is about 35k per year the last two years, 5k more than UNC for OOS students. I have a friend OOS from AZ attending Cal, and she stated that her bill is about 32,500. She budgets her money well though, so I suppose it could be much more expensive if you ate out every night, etc. But this would be the same at any school.</p>
<p>
[Quote]
So, again, how does one save money as an OOS at Berkeley, compared to an OOS at UNC?
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not sure where I ever said it would be cheaper going to Berkeley, I said IF the difference is only 5k per year, I would choose Cal.</p>
<p>As for the undergraduate experience, I have no doubt that UNC provides an excellent one; after all, I applied for a reason! Berkeley's strength definitely is in its grad programs, though its undergrad initiatives are always ranked among the top in the country as well (a fact that is often overlooked by those who prefer to focus on grad degrees). I have a very close friend there now, and she actually had one of the Nobel Laureates as a professor last year, in her sophomore chem class. But, as you stated, that is another conversation entirely.</p>
<p>tyr: That is correct, the information is about admitted students; if the admitted stats are higher, I would assume the enrolled stats would be as well. and you are current in the policy decision. However, California is not limited to only enrolling 12%, as is the case at UCLA, for example. I believe they can enroll up to 20% OOS (give or take a few %). Therefore, they are being restricted by the high standards expected for and OOS applicant.
As with regards to my friend, funny thing is that she was admitted to both UNC and ND (and is currently on an academic scholarship at ND). But I have no doubt that UNC has rejected extraordinary applicants in the past.</p>
<p>OP: Overall, I truly believe UNC is one of the greatest schools in the country. The atmosphere, social scene, sports, and especially academics, is hard to match. If you go to UNC, no one will ever question why you didn't attend Berkeley, or UCLA, or HYP. If they do, don't try to explain it, it's their loss that they can't look past the prestige factor. Any of the schools you mentioned- Cal, Michigan, UVA, UNC, etc., are great places that will give you a unique and progressive experience. I sincerely wish you the best in making your decision!</p>