Why you should attend Baruch over most other schools including NYU!

Colleges and Universities A-Z Baruch College, City University of New York
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<p>Still at this? wow…OK, </p>

<p>That one would argue a school is better because of slightly higher SAT or math scores proves what exactly? how about a different view: that of outcomes… Ever hear of the Paris School of Mines? They have been doing this study for years where they look at the graduates of 11,000 schools in the world and see how many graduates are CEOs in Fortune 500 companies…a specific measure: real world proof of success after graduation. The last full ranking was done in '09 but they update the results every year. </p>

<p><a href=“Highly-ranked French engineering school - MINES PARISTECH”>Highly-ranked French engineering school - MINES PARISTECH;

<p>They list the top 377 colleges in the world in terms of number of F-500 CEOs. The current rankings has the following schools as mentioned herein:</p>

<h1>16-Fordham, Cornell #18-Columbia #89-Tulane, #216 (a large group where each school had the same number of CEOs) NYU, CUNY (includes Baruch), London School of Business, St. John’s, Pace, Notre Dame etc.</h1>

<p>So, real world outcomes. But is this absolute proof that Fordham, Cornell, Columbia etc. will provide better outcomes that other schools? No, and neither is SAT or math scores of incoming freshmen but it is a better measure of real return on a private education. Baruch was scored in total with all the other CUNY schools (Brooklyn, Queens, CCNY, etc.) and still was 216th.</p>

<p>There are so many ways to judge the value of an education. That it is cheaper is an important factor in deciding a school, but should not be the only or final factor. Most of the top schools in the Paris-Mines ranking are private schools, so for those CEOs it WAS a factor. </p>

<p>Why would anyone in their right mind go to NYU over Baruch (that is so much less expensive?)</p>

<p>There are a legion of bankers, brokers and CEOs who all could give you their reasons why.</p>

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<p>RamRay, not everyone’s definition of success is making F500 CEO, IB, PE, or HF. If someone is looking for an accounting career, or many other careers, maybe the added (debt+prestige/network) costs more than it benefits. Also, the Paris School of Mines study seems to be more correlation and less causation. As far as we know, family socioeconomic status could be the major contributing factor for both F500 CEO achievement AND whether or not that person attended an elite, expensive, private university. </p>

<p>Also, pick the top 5 performing schools in the School of Mines study: what are the odds that attending one of those schools actually leads to a F500 CEO position? A tiny fraction of a percent? Should someone really base a $50k-200k decision on what essentially is the analogue of “winning the career lottery”? </p>

<p>I wonder what the AVERAGE outcome was for people who attended an “elite” university and had to borrow over $100k in order to graduate. I wonder what fraction of those people (who took on $100k+ of debt in order to attend an “elite” university – for an UNDERGRADUATE degree) would report that they would “do it all over again” (especially in this economy). </p>

<p>Borrowing that type of money to obtain something for which there is no secondary market (e.g. <a href=“Boston College Law Student Asks For His Money Back | HuffPost College”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost) seems inherently risky, unless money was never an issue to begin with. You still have to pay back the debt even if you don’t find a job on Wall Street or in Silicon Valley; or, even if you find that IB job and then realize that you absolutely hate it. It’s not just the (debt+interest+origination fee) that you have to pay back, its the opportunity cost of not having that extra savings that you could earn interest on at a younger age (by investing, purchasing real estate, etc.). </p>

<p>We have a $1.2 TRILLION student–loan debt problem in this country, and growing. That means fewer first time homebuyers, fewer young people buying new cars, etc. How do you think this is going to impact the overall economy in the future?</p>

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<p>Well I would love to attend it, but the CUNY System is taking forever to process my admission application as an Undergraduate Transfer student. My application number is W0007675949, if anyone can help. In my mind, I have already banked the fact, as if, I got admitted at Baruch for Fall 2014. Assuming the fact, of getting admitted to Baruch, I am going to take 7 classes over the summer starting May 19th here in Albany, NY. 4 classes in session 1 and the other 3 in session 2 at 3 different colleges. I will be screwed big time if they don’t take me in because all my summer classes will be useless. Just like a hangman, I only have one last chance left. The student loans have crossed $60k with interest. Out of that $60k in loans, I had never spend a penny in anything other than my education expenses. I make only $8.5 an hour working part-time at this time. If they don’t take me in I don’t want to continue my degree at my current school because my current college cannot take me in their finance program because you need to have a 3.5 GPA minimum to be a finance major at my college. They are offering me an Economics degree which I don’t like and is useless. I want to do Finance and only have one year to go. My current college will let me continue with my economics degree which I don’t want to do it. I am not planning to pursue Master’s degree at this time, so what am I going to do with my economics degree. I don’t want an economics degree, don’t like it. I believe economics is a useful degree only if you have at least a master’s degree or a PhD in economics. I exactly know what I want to do with my life, but there are external forces/factors that are resisting me towards my goal. Over the years, I have tried everything for State and Federal jobs but the Bureaucracy is worse than ever. The jobs in State and Federal are scarce and without a good reference or help of an insider, it is impossible to get a job. I have tried on several occasions and failed. The private sector jobs without a degree won’t ay more than $15/hour, which sounds great but covers the most basic expenses (Rent, Food, Car insurance, Gas, Bills, Clothing) of daily living when you do the MATH right. I am 26 and stuck big time in this situation. If I don’t get admitted then most likely I will have to go through bankruptcy in fall 2014. I already an AS degree in Business Administration which is quite worthless. The stakes are very high and I hope someone at CUNY understands that. Government handouts won’t work for me because public housing has a waiting list and I will be qualified only for food stamps which is $200-$250 max. Well, I don’t like to use Social Service benefits because I am a strong opponent to it. Any suggestions, What Should I do? :-< :frowning: :frowning: [-O< :!! :-t :)] 8-| >:P :(( </p>

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<p>=(( :open_mouth: :(( :-S :-w =)) 8-} :-? :-?? =P~ b-( [-O< ~X( %-( :!! \m/ :-q ^#(^ :(( [-( :(( =(( :(( =(( :(( :(( . CUNY Baruch Why don’t you understand, I have no options left in NY state other than your college. Baruch is the only college that offers classes for my intended career. I am not willing too change my career choice. The above are some of my emotions. Please read my Story above.</p>

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<p>taxguy, </p>

<p>Thanks for your advice. What could you share about your experiences at Baruch? Administration? Class sizes? Professors? Were they supportive of working professionals who attend part-time? Did they offer any career support? Would it be reasonable to commute from somewhere like Sunset Park, Brooklyn? Thanks! :slight_smile:
… also, I sent you a PM. </p>

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<p>@Dipesh Shah why don’t you give them a call. I too am a transfer to Baruch and I have been calling them at least twice a week for the past month. Last Monday I got the great news that I was accepted as a transfer. Just call 646-312-1800 and ask about your application status. Good luck</p>

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<p>Folks,
I don’t dispute college costs are unreal and difficult to pay, but the argument that one should attend a public insitituion over a private one becasue of cost is a fallacious argument. Your points about rising costs are endemic to our society overall, not just colleges. By your reconing, lets do away with all private schools to make college affordable to all. How about homes? Nice cars, vacations…all things not necessary and expensive. Extend your argument; Lets ony have public schools, rental aprtments, cheap cars so all the masses can afford it.<br>
Oh wait…been there, done that (i.e. communism). Educated people want more, want choices.</p>

<p>Private school is an option and a right. That we have excellent public schools in this country is a good thing, but to say that a cheaper school is a better school because it is cheaper is a poor argument. Is the education the same? Perhaps, perhaps not (many an argument in that statement). Are there advantages of a private school? I and many others feel there is…some of you favor public so you do not agree and that is your right. To say public schools are better because they are cheaper is not true.</p>

<p>Boss2014. There is no study that will prove absolutely that one type of school or education is better than another. Someone here argued that slightly better SATs meant the school was better; another bad argument. The only thing that can even begin to provide any kind of meaning is the outcomes. Now, The Paris Minse study is but one such outcome and if you read my statement, I did say if the upper schools “… will provide better outcomes that other schools? No,” . You make some statements that are intersting…but can you support your position with results and studies? As I said, The Mines study is but one way of considering outcomes and not of any final, conclusive value, just an indication of emprical data in a very small sample (Fortune 500). People have their own definition of success. Persue your dreams as you wish, but it is a poor argument to say that a Kia is better than a BMW just because it is cheaper. Baruch is not better than NYU just because it is cheaper. Better value? well…arguable. Better than NYU period? no.</p>

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<p>RamRay,</p>

<p>Thank you for your clarification. I agree with you that outcomes are important, especially with the current (inflated) cost of education and the way that universities market degrees as stepping stones to a better paying career. However, I also believe that an education is valuable beyond that of career outcomes; when you learn a new way of thinking about the world, you carry that with you wherever you go. For example, as an undergrad, I majored in mathematics and economics; these majors did not prepare me for a specific profession (e.g. accounting, medicine, law, etc.), but they did teach me an entirely different way of thinking about and understanding the world around me. My undergraduate education has improved my life in a way beyond simple career outcomes. </p>

<p>Also, I agree with you that SOMETIMES a more expensive private education is more worthwhile than a less expensive public education. In fact, my undergraduate degree is from a highly ranked private university, and I also spent two years studying at a highly ranked public, research–focused, university – the difference, for me, was night and day. That said, there are many ways to keep education costs in check without resorting to an exclusively public education system. Right now, it seems that higher–education inflation in the USA (driven in part by the rise of student debt financing, a government push for education, and a difficult job market – all of which have increased demand) is out of touch with the worldwide market for education. For example, Europeans have access to universities that provide, arguably, an education comparable to any top university in the USA, and at a fraction of the cost (including: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, ETH, Sorbonne, and INSEAD, to name a few). </p>

<p>I am NOT saying that: cheaper (always) == better. Rather, I am saying that it really depends on a person’s individual goals and circumstances. If someone’s goal is to get a job in IB or M/B/B consulting, then pedigree/prestige and alumni network matter a lot – no argument here. But, if someone’s goal is to pursue, for example, a career in accounting or medicine, then reputation/rank/prestige matters far less (if at all). Also, as you move farther into your career, your recent accomplishments will often matter far more than the name on your degree. </p>

<p>For many (most) people, money is a “scarce” resource; so, when comparing two programs that have significantly different costs and yet similar career/income outcomes, the question becomes: “what am I getting for that extra cost, and how does that compare with my alternative ways of using that cost savings?”. Also, if someone is borrowing to pay for college, the total cost may end up being much higher than the advertised tuition&fees. Even degree programs in areas such as medicine and accounting (where the expected career/income outcome is fairly program rank/reputation independent) have huge variance in tuition costs and cost of attendance. </p>

<p>My problem with using the “Paris School of Mines” study as a decision making heuristic is that it is essentially looking at data from the extreme tail end of a population distribution. A much better indicator would be a study that looks at the median, mean, 95% C.I., or some other measure of central tendency. Students should make educational decisions based on good data, and on a fundamental sense of their reasons/motivations for pursuing a degree. The problem with many of these “ranking” studies (many of which lack the “rigor” to be taken seriously by an academic research journal) is that they are reductionist: when you look at the nitty, gritty details of the criteria that went into the study, much of it has little to do with what truly matters to most students considering the universities being ranked.</p>

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<p>Bos2014
Well, for the most part I think we can agree on most points. I just took exception to the statement that no one in their right mind would choose NYU over Baruch due to cost. Many in their right mind would have many reasons to choose NYU over Baruch. The Paris School of Mines study is no better or worse than many other studies, but many find interesting and some a fair measure on one kind of outcome… As to the finer points on this topic, I think we would just have to agree to disagree. I will agree that Baruch can provide a fine education; it is up to the individual to make the most of any opportunity.</p>

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<p>Ramray, I was the one who started this post. When it was written , Baruch was $5,100 a year in tuition. This wasn’t per semester,but it was for a year! NYU was over 40K per year! In addition, these same kids who got into NYU could probably qualify for the honors program at Baruch and get free tuition plus a free computer!</p>

<p>Now I won’t say that saving $160,000++ ( not even counting fees and cost of living increases) should be the only concern in selecting a college; however, I do feel that unless the student is from wealthy parents or gets a very big scholarship at NYU, there better be a HUGE reason to take NYU over Baruch especially if they want to select majors that Baruch is traditional strong in such as accounting. I don’t believe that the cache of NYU’s name is worth that differential, especially with the huge alumni based of Baruch graduates currently working in business.</p>

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<p>My S took the Baruch full tuition scholarship/honors program. I could afford to send him to more expensive
private schools, and he did get into ones similar in prestige and cost like NYU, but I did not feel it was worth the extra cost. Undergrad is a time to explore your interests in life. Grad school is a time to focus on something
and make a career, and that might be where it makes sense to spend more money. If you think you would
only go to undergrad, maybe picking a top school is more important than I have considered in this decision.</p>

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Hi taxguy! I have read a lot of your comments about Baruch. I am a current freshman at Baruch. I know you are also an alumni. Are there some ways I can contact you because I want you to be my mentor.

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accountingguy, I have been away from the accounting profession and accounting jobs for over 30 years. Thus, I wouldn’t be the right person to mentor you. I also don’t really know: you, your strengths, weaknesses, likes, dislikes etc.

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Hi taxguy, I am also a freshman at Baruch. Do you have any thoughts on Cornell’s Dyson’s school? If I am not going to major in accounting at Baruch, is Dyson is better choice than Baruch for other business majors? Thank you!

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If you are going for investment banking, or finance, yes, Cornell is the way to go. I agree with taxguy regarding accounting. It is silly to spend 60-65k per year at a private school when Baruch is highly rated, and costs like 10-15k per year. I am including commutation and or living on campus. I believe they have a housing building now. The large big 4 accounting firms do not pay more if you went to Columbia, Harvard, Wharton, Suny Albany, or Baruch for Accounting. If they hire you, you will earn basically the same 65k starting salary.

Now, with investment banking, the Goldmans of the world, and the Jp Morgan etc love to recruit from the top rated business schoold such as Harvard, Duke, Uchicago, Yale, Cornell, NYU etc. That is just the way it is.

That said, does that mean that students that go to Baruch, Binghamton, Buffalo Rutgers etc will not get a front office job in investment banking, of course not. But it is alot harder, that is a guarantee.

So, if you can go to Cornell, and can afford it, go for it if your goal is investment banking.

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The Dyson School at Cornell claims they are “Ivy League Smart.”

Lol. That is a little pretentious don’t you think.

It is an Agricultural School.

Remember that when comparing options.

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Clarine, check again. I believe the Dyson School is a Business School that houses Economics, not Agriculture. Maybe it was that way a while back, but no more.

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@ms9696, about 25% of Baruch College undergraduates major in Finance (20% for Accounting). So more than 80% of Baruch students do not major in Accounting, with Finance being the most popular.

http://college.usatoday.com/2014/12/18/top-10-colleges-for-a-major-in-finance/

http://college.usatoday.com/2014/09/01/top-10-u-s-colleges-for-an-accounting-degree/

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Thanks for the information @Jamrock411 ! And @euve69, the undergraduate business major (Applied Economics and Management) at Cornell is under the Cornell University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. The graduate program is in the Dyson School. :slight_smile:

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Hey @taxguy I was just wondering about Baruch college for graduate school? I went to ST. John’s university for undergrad ( loved every minute of it), but I’m looking at Baruch for its Masters in Finance program. Do you think it’s worth it? I owe 16k now, and I really don’t want to pay 63k for NYU. Just asking.