Will There Be Another "Brandeis"

Parents Forum
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<p>Couple things. Much like everything else (including the March Madness selection process--Oakland U.?!) this is an inexact science but governed by the almighty dollar. I assure you that legacies are important at selective institutions but if the alum is a major contributor as well, the legacy could be three shades of green and have just fair stats but will be welcomed with open arms. No quota in that circumstance.</p>

<p>And let's face it---these universities are in it to be self-perpetuating and to make money. Colleges are discovering that an ad agency that can make a slick website that displays the university as having great ethnic diversity & intellectual harmony (maybe only slightly exaggerated) is worth its weight in gold as far as drawing a wide variety of across-the-board applicants.</p>

42

<p>Duckstamper:</p>

<p>The problem with looking at that number in a vaccuum is that zero self-selection is required to submit an application to a college. For example, we could also say that students scoring less than 1200 on the SATs are accepted at a much lower rate at elite colleges.</p>

<p>This lack of self-selection is particularly acute at the designer-label Ivy League schools, which is why I always caution against using Ivy stats as representative of elite college admissions.</p>

<p>I also think that Asian acceptances are under-reported as the percentage of applicants refusing to self-identify racially or ethnically has now become a significant part of the applicant pool. Plus, the percentage of the nternational students from Asian countries is overwhelming -- and, in many cases, there is no difference between these students and an Asian-American student other than immigration status, i.e. either could be attending the same high school in Los Angeles or Singapore.</p>

<p>I don't disagree with your basic premise that there are probably Asian quotas or ceilings in admissions at many schools -- the differences in enrollment between nearly identical schools is too striking to be co-incidental. However, I do not think that is the complete explanation. The explanation also lies, in part, with the types of applications that are fashionable in admissions offices these days.</p>

<p>I believe that ALL applicants should carefully consider the acceptance rates for their particular race or ethnicity rather than look at some broad averages. Clearly college admissions is race-based with each racial/ethnic group competing within their particular category for a predefined number of targetted "slots". All racial/ethnic groups need to understand the implications of that system on their particular chances.</p>

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<p>So who leveled the playing field for Asians and Jews? Why didn't they need affirmative action to succeed in America? Come to think of it why are Black's from the Caribbean and their kids so over-represented relative to American Blacks at our elite universities? Were Chinese coolies less discriminated against than hispanics? Is it really easier for a Jew to pass? Certainly it can't be argued that anti-semitism wasn't perbasive and far predates any bigotry against Blacks. Indeed it is still socially acceptable to hate the Zionist on most any campus in the country. I cannot answer those questions.</p>

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<p>Have you ever begun to consider how all those folks got here? What the last 200 years were like? What they brought from their cultures at home?</p>

<p>I grew up Jewish, in a poor family, and had HUGE advantages over virtually any African-Americans I ever met. But forget AA for Jews and Blacks and Asians. Just end it for rich, mostly white folks - or don't end, just put a cap so that everyone at least knows what the playing field IS.</p>

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<p>Despite inherited advantage/disadvantage isn't it quite clear that in America you can push your way to the top if that's your desire. Whether you attend Harvard or Pepperdine or Oregon State or none at all. The bottom line is smarts,talent,ambition,looks....so if you don't get into Stanford because of an invisible cap in the long run does it truly affect your quality of life? I don't think so. The cream rises to the top. </p>

<p>To move up or down the ladder is just a step. A bigger step for some than others but a step nevertheless. Sometimes I think wouldn't it be nice if I owned a lucrative business or had a huge stash of cash I could pass down to the kids...smooth the bumps of life out for them. Make things easier. Less pressure-better sleep.</p>

<p>Than I realize that's dopey. No givens in life. They could still blow it.</p>

<p>I'm rambling but my point is that whether or not you're given a leg up (or down) isn't ultimately of any significant consequence. It all boils down to the individual eventually. Affirmative action, quotas,etc. are fun to debate but should not promote or hinder any given gals/guys happiness.</p>

46

<p>Agreed! And so I think said institution could write a clear description of their admissions policies on their website, as follows:</p>

<p>"We are glad you are interested in Prestige College. We pride ourselves on being Prestigious, and hope you will come to share that pride.</p>

<p>Our admissions patterns at Prestige College have not changed in the past 20 years, so we want you to know what they are. Prestige College does not discriminate on the basis of race, creed, national original, gender, or sexual orientation, and we are proud of the Prestigious diversity we have at Prestige College.</p>

<p>We will, as we always have, accept 75% of the 2009 Class of Prestige College, from the top quartile of the U.S. population with the most wealth (and an additional 5% from those with the top 2% wealth in the world.) Of this 75%, approximately 20% will receive financial aid from us. </p>

<p>While we are "need-blind", in order to maintain our Prestige at Prestige College, we will accept at least half (and perhaps a little more) of our student body from the top 5% of the U.S. population in wealth, students who require no financial aid from us. Of this 50+% of our students, many will come from the Prestigious part of the population, and will thus enhance the future Prestige of Prestige College.</p>

<p>We want you to know that coming from the top 5% of the U.S. population in wealth does not guarantee a place at Prestige College (though coming from the top 1% might make you close to a lock.) We expect we will only accept roughly 1 out of every 3 applicants in this wealth class. We want you to know, however, that this is about 5 times better than your odds if you were poorer, as we want to reward the current and future Prestige of you and your Prestigious family. And we are doubly pleased in knowing that your parents will be happy to pay the Prestige College bill without any assistance from us. We trust you understand and accept this, as this helps us maintain the Prestige at Prestige College that we are Prestigious for.</p>

<p>Again, we thank you for your interest in Prestige College, and we reiterate again that we at Prestige College accept students without any regard whatsoever to their race, creed, national origin, gender, or sexual orientation.</p>

<p>Have a Nice Day! ;)"</p>

47

<p>As a kid I applied to Prestige (a few). Didn't get in . Went to a state school instead. Applied to Prestige Med school. Didn't get in. Again! Went to a private med school foolishly when I could have saved plenty by going to my state med school.</p>

<p>Hasn't made any difference.</p>

<p>Not going to Prestige has not affected my life one iota( well maybe if I had attended they would have taught me how to write).</p>

<p>I'm Jewish also, from a middle class background. Maybe if I had attended Exeter I would have been accepted. But so what? There are 2 country clubs within 2 miles of my home I am not welcome at. OK...that's life.</p>

<p>There is still ample opportunity for everyone. It's not ideal. It's not "fair". But it still works. I swim at my neighbor's pool.</p>

48

<p>Mini, I wish I could express myself better. What I'm trying to say in my own muddled fashion is that .... yeah sometimes we're not invited to the party and yes it might be nice to go...but there always seems to be another party. Maybe not quite as grand but still fun.</p>

<p>By the way do you think if I had gone to Prestige Nicole Kidman would answer my letters? Because if so I'll apply again. The nurses tell me bald is beautiful. Are they just humoring me?</p>

49

<p>Agree, totally. And I think you expressed yourself very well indeed. (What makes you think that if I ran Prestige College, I'd run it any differently?) I just think things should be more honest, more transparent. Parents wouldn't get their hopes all hyped up, and would spend more time loving their wonderful kids for what they are, and taking the time to enjoy them as kids - it doesn't last very long! If all those lower- and middle-income kids and their parents knew that the real odds weren't any better than one in 20, and, that for many of us (as they well know) life began AFTER college anyway, we could all take a deep breath.</p>

<p>Eh! Many of us don't want to do - that's why we enjoy this forum, where our opinions aren't necessarily worth the paper they're printed on, and there ain't no paper. There is a Yiddish expression for this......and I haven't been able to remember what it is! ;)</p>

<p>I had a Jewish friend of mine translate a prayer I wrote into Hebrew to say when I leave home, and am afraid I left something behind:</p>

<p>"Blessed are You, O Lord our God, Ruler of the Universe,
Who commanded us to forget what we forgot,
And to forget that we have forgotten it."</p>

<p>Maybe they should inscribe it on the library at Brandeis, on the way out.</p>

50

<p>Mini I think you underestimate the amount of social and economic mobility in this country both between generations and even within life times. There are really very few families where you can trace back wealth for generations. I know in my own which I can trace back into the 17th century on my fathers side that while it has generaly been stolidly middleclass farmers and shopkeepers that there have been decided ups and downs as well. Some generations quite well off then wealth disipated in business cycles and divided among children. Some to prosper again only to see the cycle repeated - cousines rich and poor.</p>

<p>On my wifes side of the family she cannot trace the family back past her grandmother but still there is great variation in circumstances between generations and within as well as withing life times. Her sister was well enough off to retire in her mid-fifties but in her twenties she was a single mother on food stamps. Her brother went to Prestige University and is a corporate executive with an international company making the kind of money those folks make. Wife is probably the smartest of the three, Phi Beta Kappa her Junior year in college now in her mid-fifties and never made more than $35,000 a year. Bad choice of careers - child care. All three of these siblings had parents who spent big chunks of their childhoods in orphanages because the parents couldn't make enough money to feed them. The next generation? Who knows how the cousins will wind up? And their kids? Well I can pretty much guarantee that unless someone can amass the kind of wealth that a Rockefeller has it won't last for generations.</p>

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<p>I have so much hard data on this issue (beyond anecdotes) that I don't want to clutter up this list. If you e-mail me privately, I'll be happy to send it to you. (It's a book chapter from a forthcoming....)</p>

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<p>just wondering: how do you pronounce 'Brandeis?' Is it "Bran - day - is" or "Bran - die - is?" or something else? I was never quite sure.</p>

53

<p>Bran + dice</p>

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<p>I have heard Brandeis is a school that wants to diversify its Jewish-dominant image-- so it should be a good school for Asians to be accepted at. This could be a fruitful cultural collaboration. Also a range of Middle Eastern students--not just Israelis-- who were dedicated to peaceful coexistence through joint academic inquiry--that would be truly exciting as an East meets West institution.</p>

55

<p>Patuxent... go find a recent article in the Economist which disputes your analysis.... since WWII economic mobility in the US has been greatly reduced, and the biggest factor in predicting a child's economic status is parental status, despite all of our interesting and quixotic tales to the contrary.</p>

<p>I myself walked to school 3 miles in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways....</p>

56

<p>"I myself walked to school 3 miles in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways...."</p>

<p>At a community forum last night on school closure, one woman who had graduated from the UW in 1932 with multiple degrees expounded on having walked to school 5 miles each way- past bears and cougars! at the age of 6!</p>

<p>( I was waiting for her to say it was uphill both ways )</p>

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<p>Mini, At services last year there was a sermon about how grateful we should be that our memories fade.</p>

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<p>I am intrigued, as always with your facts and analysis of those facts. So I have sat here making a list for awhile, and - once again, this is just anecdotal - EVERY SINGLE STUDENT I KNOW who did NOT apply for aid got into his or her FIRST CHOICE school!! This covers my all my kids, so far, my kids' closest friends; the kids I interviewed for my Ivy (yes, I knew, regarding about half of them, if they were applying for aid - I actually kept track of this data over the years because it interested me at the time); several relatives' kids; and the children of a rather large number of close friends. I'm talking SCORES of kids here.....</p>

<p>I find this remarkably intriguing, anecdotal though it may be........it backs up what you have said repeatedly, on this and other threads.</p>

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<p>"Prestige College" (actually multiples of same) provides us with a lot of data about the income/wealth skew at their institutions. We know with some precision those with incomes in the lowest 35%tile - those are the Pell Grant recipients. We also know about top 5%ers (generally speaking, incomes of $155,000+/year, most well above that - they don't get any financial aid.) We know how many foreign students there are (and can remove them from the mix.) That leaves roughly 30% of the student body (give or take) made up of individuals from the vast bulk of the U.S. middle-income population - 35%-95%tile.</p>

<p>But we actually know even more: at least one of the Prestige Colleges reports that they have even fewer students attending from the quintile above the Pell Granters than they have really poor students! (These are the folks that Princeton's no-loan thing is primarily aimed at.) </p>

<p>In short, without a single anecdote, we know huge amounts about who is applying, and who is attending. Doesn't take a genius to figure it out, and I'm not one! ;)</p>

<p>Yeah, they're all "need-blind". Ummmmm. (What I enjoy about these conversations, since I have no d.'s or s.'s looking at colleges, and my next one is a Div. I gymnast with totally different needs and aspirations than that which can be fulfilled by most of the top 50, is the degree to which they teach us about ourselves.)</p>

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<p>Colleges do not change life that can provide $$$$$ , otherwise, all college professors will be Bill Gates. One has to work hard and use their talent to go ahead in real life. Bookish knowledge alone does not result in $$$$$$. In real life different people use different passion to pursue.</p>