Williams College or Columbia College??

<p>guys, we're in a thread about Williams. Issues about GS, or one man's decision on Amherst College, are off-topic. That's not some horrible sin, but it does mean that people looking for answers on those topics won't know to look here, and people looking for answers on this topic won't get what they're looking for.</p>

<p>Some random guy came into this thread - which, by the way, is 11 months old - and just posted a bunch of facts about GS, with no relevance here at all.</p>

<p>If you want to start the 4,692nd "thread about GS that results in heated arguments", by all means do so, but please not here. There's good useful content here.</p>

<p>I'm sorry you feel that way, admissionsgeek. I didn't know that a lack of people of different skin colors made you uncomfortable, and that everyone looking different was a value that you treasured.</p>

<p>I spent my entire life in Queens, New York: I'm sure you're well-aware of our Asian, Hispanic, Eastern European, and Western European population. Riding the 7 train every day from Main Street to Grand Central to go to school, I had never seen a WASP on that train before: no joke.</p>

<p>Yet, white people do not make me uncomfortable. I don't know how to explain it: the color of a person's skin would not make me feel ostracized. Maybe because I've lived in the city all my life, and I'm less race-conscious than, say, a kid from the 'burbs.</p>

<p>I mean, our 39 percent "people of color" population may pale in comparison to Columbia's 50 percent claim, but I am pleased to brag that a fifth of our student body come from low-income families.</p>

<p>I mean, I love the city too. If you chose Columbia because you love the city, say so. Don't rag on LACs like Williams and Amherst because you're under some erroneous assumption that they aren't ethnically and socio-economically diverse. That's just foolish and unjustified.</p>

<p>I bring up Amherst because people find outrageous reasons to disparage it, the same ones they would to sully Williams' name.</p>

<p>If the city and people of color make that much difference to you... choose Columbia.
After all,</p>

<p>
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COLUMBIA. Its in New York City and an Ivie school

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<p>hi kwu: </p>

<p>it is less socioeconomically diverse in absolute terms. i don't know how you want to cut it. and i am sorry if you lack the ability to understand my personal decision. as it is mine, and not yours. i have never ragged on someone for their own decision and equally state that this is my pov. love it or hate it, but know that it comes well researched.</p>

<p>i chose cu for the academics primarily, but one of the factors on where I chose to apply was on the actuality of its diversity and how welcoming i believed i felt not just on campus but in the community around. many universities out there have nice diversity numbers but i still didn't find the actuality of the diversity compelling. now, this doesn't mean that you must do the same especially if it is not your choice.</p>

<p>and i know queens and queens schools probably better than you think (so don't try to play the trump card when you don't have an idea). knowing queens students, i don't blame you for not wanting to stay and choosing a beautiful school, that is your choice. but for me diversity was lacking in my rural midwestern high school particularly as i was born outside the country. i didn't have the privilege that you had growing up in queens, and in choosing college i wanted to have that. a place as diverse as columbia and nyc was ideal for me.</p>

<p>and i agree standing up for amherst, as i am not an alumnus i can't do it justice the way you can i'm sure. but to act ignorantly and attack someone without cause to try and discredit a desire for other perspectives beyond my small town...well also realize that you are representing amherst. and what you say and how you say it is how people may come to think about your school.</p>

<p>I respect whatever your motivations may have been.</p>

<p>However, I still find it hard to believe that one of the primary factors that would influence a person to choose to enroll at one college over another is ethnic composition. I have heard your "critical mass of minority students" far too many times in debates about Affirmative Action, and it struck a nerve. I apologize.</p>

<p>What I don't appreciate is your implication that it would be shameful to attend a well-maintained and beautiful school, and that such schools are lacking in genuine diversity, the sort that surpasses both race and class.</p>

<p>I am not an alumnus. I am a currently enrolled student. And, I have the right to defend my school against ignorance.</p>

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However, I still find it hard to believe that one of the primary factors that would influence a person to choose to enroll at one college over another is ethnic composition/

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<p>I don't find that hard to believe, at all. One's ethnicity comprises more than one's skin colour; it comprises one's life experiences. Speaking as a black Canadian, my race/ethnicity still determines how I am treated by society and by individuals, how many opportunities I have, how I view the world. So if someone is interested in "genuine diversity," he or she might very well want to be surrounded by people of different races. We are not living in a post-racial society just yet.</p>

<p>
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What I don't appreciate is your implication that it would be shameful to attend a well-maintained and beautiful school, and that such schools are lacking in genuine diversity, the sort that surpasses both race and class.

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<p>Diversity will only surpass both race and class when we live in a raceless and classless society. Until then, race and class will continue to determine one's life experiences.</p>

<p>well understood kwu, but here is where i think it is worth a good conversation about race...</p>

<p>race is a tricky thing because if you were to ask underrepresented minorities if there is enough representation they would emphatically say no (take out the athletes, non-identifiers, etc. and the number often is lower than you think), but other people will often say "isn't it enough?" at the heart of this disjuncture is a question of perception.</p>

<p>i will say that unless it is something you think about often (whether you are majoritarian or minority) then perhaps you will think it does not matter, and perception is not something that is uniform across a race - yes you can show me blacks and hispanics who disagree with what i say. but it is often documented in surveys of racial microagressions that cultural misunderstandings affect minority populations far more aggressively than they do majoritarian individuals. no matter where you live you will hear things, see things, or have things happen to you that will suddenly take you aback, it is a natural situation. but what happens more often for minority individuals is the sense of attack (in part because of historical oppression). critical mass as a concept is imperfect, but overall it is the sense of being part of a community that is welcoming, that is understanding and that you are not forced in part to be friends with the other dozen or so black folk even if you have nothing in common (we may desire to not like each other too). this is why being part of a community that embraces diversity is critical. yes, new york is a real ignorant place sometimes, but it is also a place that is not afraid to wear its racialism on its sleeves and have open conversations about what it means to be a white person living at the cusp of Harlem. from growing up in exurbia i can say this kind of conversation is often suppressed and a sense of isolation is more pronounced. this has nothing to do structurally with the desires of the college nor students who attend, but it is a very 'real' byproduct of racialism (note i use this word and not racism) in this country and the fact that in each of our own daily interactions we often dismiss the importance of race (when it is so often the subtext of what is going on). [i'm proud of eric holder for talking about this in such a frank way.]</p>

<p>so i understand perhaps that to many, even many other hispanics and blacks, a conversation around ethnic composition sounds superfluous. i think that if we are to merely review the sociological studies behind it that we would come to the conclusion there is much change left to happen. and as a matter of individual and mental strength - i think that many do not realize what some individuals face on a daily basis being the only african american in an honors class, the only hispanic in student government. though we are apt to consider our own struggles as unique, add onto it at times the pressure and weight of an entire ethnicity (and equally the stereotypes and denigration of that ethnicity) and you would understand the isolation i am referring to. but another layer - those of us do not want you to read this and to immediately jump to pity or disgust, there is still an echo of equality in mind and not to be treated special. how universities and us as student ought to negotiate this delicate relationship is up in the air. a theory of critical mass has some currency because it argues that there needs to be diversity within the minority pool itself (socioeconomic, geographic) that can mirror diversity of the university. false diversity or diversity-baiting often is the idea that some institutions admit people that would under no conditions actually relate with each other with the expectation that they will form a cohesive subcommunity. this is not possible unless values, goals and ambitions are in line. a recent immigrant compared to a long time american hold separate values far more in hispanic and black populations than in asian and south asian groups, but the university calls them both the same thing. this is something that is problematic throughout - especially in racial data collection - but it is especially in the case of underrepresented minorities where a percent number is all of a sudden supposed to be a harbinger of actual change.</p>

<p>and sorry denzera for bringing it off topic. to relate back to the post in general. i think that to any individual who wants to consider a college and its 'feel,' that the question of diversity ought to be in mind. this does not have to be your primary focus, but it is worth asking the right questions.</p>

<p>and kwu, i do not know your background beyond what you have said here and no disrespect to you. but in the conversation around affirmative action, the primary fallacy is approaching it as if there is a solution. inequality (racial or otherwise) will always be a point of differentiation and contestation in society. pretending that we will have a mission accomplished banner is naive and doesn't truly understand the psychological and sociological bases that prevent individuals from certain subgroups to succeed. in fact there is talk nowadays that the white male applicant pool has become so small that some schools have begun to act affirmatively to ensure that that voice is part of the college community.</p>

<p>There's no absolute difference in the quality of the education -- both schools are highly ranked, and post-baccalaureate opportunities should be similar (Columbia might give you slightly more range as far as business, journalism, and other straight-out-of-undergrad fields go in terms of name recognition, particularly if you plan to live and work outside of the Northeast).</p>

<p>If you want to be an i-banker or work in finance...go to Columbia.</p>

<p>Other than that, consider the atmosphere.</p>

<p>I loved the idea of Williams -- I would have certainly applied in high school had I thought I would've been able to afford it. It's got the Oxford tutorial situation; it's a small, prestigious liberal arts college (which I wanted) in the elitist Northeast sphere of life. Great resources, great amenities, great name. However, it's in a tiny small town in Massachusetts, whereas Columbia is in...<em>New York!</em>. The social and networking possibilities are ENDLESS. Columbia also has the benefit of thousands of courses across the university in over 20 different schools.</p>

<p>So really, it's about which atmosphere you think will benefit you the most. And remember, you can always come to Columbia for graduate school, especially coming from Williams. The graduate school experience IS quite different, I'll admit, but it's still nice.</p>

<p>I'm faced with basically the same decision: Amherst vs. Columbia. The above post mirrors my thoughts exactly.</p>

<p>I couldn't pass up NYC.</p>

<p>I thought I'd posted on this thread already, but I guess not, so here goes: I had the Columbia College vs. Williams dilemma.</p>

<p>I'd been waitlisted at Williams and eventually got in, or think I did, becuase I got an "would you attend if we accepted you email". By then, however, I was sold on CC, but here are a few of the reasons why I eventually stuck with Columbia:</p>

<p>1) New York--I grew up in a big city (Mumbai), and as much as I think a small town would have been good for me, I didn't want to run the risk of attending one of my dream schools and then having my idealism shattered by the environment not living up to my expectations. i.e. limited things to do--although juillet claims otherwise :). Basically, moving from one city to another was sort of a natural choice.</p>

<p>2) I hadn't visited Williams, as I had Columbia, and so picturing myself at Williams was more difficult. </p>

<p>3) I wanted to major in something biology related, and I figured that the research opportunities at Columbia (particularly neuroscience) would be more abundant</p>

<p>4) Um. I'm a lazy bum, and getting to Williams would have involved flying from Mumbai to some intermediate European or Middle Eastern destination then to NYC or Boston, or NYC to Boston, and a bus/taxi to Williams. That's about 4 different transportation changes, including, possibly, a switch from an international to domestic terminal. For Columbia, my commute was Mumbai-Dubai-NYC. Pretty straightforward, but still 24 hours of travel. Would have been a longer commute for Williams. I know, I know, I think about these things. I'm crazy. But I guess it's what you look at when you're choosing between two amazing amazing schools. I'm also assuming the OP wouldn't face my problem :)</p>