Williams, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Haverford, or Bates

Colleges and Universities A-Z Williams College
1

<p>Those are the schools under consideration for my D after many college visits - several other were ruled out after visits (Colby, Bowdoin,....) because they just did not "feel right". Interested in studying biology and mathematics, and participate in sports. Wants a strong and friendly academic environment but not overly intense, wants to be with students that enjoy the outdoors, wants environmental awareness and plenty of vegetarian options, wants to be in an active environment and participate in sports but not a "jock" or "fill-the-stands" environment. Most of all wants down-to-earth nice fellow students and teachers that are not snobby, pretentious, or preppy - and smart students that are not all about intelect or shows-offs. She can probably get in to any school, but does not feel a need to go to the most prestigious she can get in to. Wants a happy 4 years and a strong academic experience. Where? </p>

<p>She expected to like Middlebury most, but it almost felt "too nice" (Stepford Wives?). She was surprised to find that she really liked Bates - probably the least prestigious and easiest to get in to of the group. All visits were in the summer with no students around.</p>

2

<p>Curious -- I answered on the Middlebury thread although I am a Williams parent.</p>

3

<p>I can't really comment on the others, but I know several students who have gone to Bates and really loved it, because it offers all the things that your D is looking for. It also has a 4-4-1 semester which is very appealing to some kids.</p>

4

<p>CD, My son graduated from Williams in 2007 having had “a happy 4 years and a strong academic experience” and then some. Williams offers everything on your daughter’s wishlist; she wouldn’t be disappointed. </p>

<p>My son’s second choice would have most likely been Wesleyan, followed by Hamilton. He also liked Amherst and Kenyon. He liked Swarthmore for its academics, but felt out of sync with the personality of the place. Didn’t click with Haverford. Didn’t visit Middlebury or any of the Maine schools, though in retrospect he probably should have.</p>

<p>My son is not an athlete but is very active and outdoorsy, in an Eagle Scout sort of way. He loved being in the Berkshires and took full advantage of mountain activities from snowboarding to trekking to just gazing. The Outing Club and various environmental programs are some of the best in the country.</p>

<p>The profound natural beauty works subtly; you don’t often get teenagers babbling on about the Power of Nature (except in an environmentally correct vein) but I think Nature and Williams are extricably bonded and the ambience seeps into your consciousness. The college’s founders and early supporters thought so too.

[quote]
Of the scenery, Thoreau remarked, after a visit in 1844, "It would be no small advantage if every college were thus located at the base of a mountain." For Thoreau the location of Williams was"as good at least as one well-endowed professorship."

[/quote]

Not everyone agrees of course. You have to want to be there. </p>

<p>I’ve had the pleasure to spend time with some of my son’s classmates and can attest to the down-to-earthness of the typical Williams student: bright, curious, kind, confident and multi-talented and multi-faceted. To me that was the prize takeaway of a Williams eduation– the lifelong relationships with fellow students and professors and the vibrant and supportive network of alums. It keeps giving back.</p>

5

<p>I'd agree with jude_36. The kids I've known at Bates have had great experiences and, in personality, have much in common with your daughter. The school's filled with, as The Great and Powerful Oz would say, "good deed doers." It's no surprise to me, given her "profile," that her visit clicked as it did.</p>

<p>Is Bates measurably a bit weaker academically, in particular in math and the sciences, than say Williams or Swarthmore? Probably. Will this make any difference to a "non-superstar" (i.e. someone who's already taken multiple advanced courses in the fields)? Probably not. </p>

<p>For someone who enjoys the outdoors and sports and wants a "not overly intense" environment, Swarthmore (possibly the purest school intellectually of the bunch) may not be her best fit.</p>

6

<p>I don't know enough about Bates to comment, but you pretty much described both Williams and Middlebury to a tee. Either would certainly be an outstanding options. Swarthmore, less so based on your description. Haverford, yes, except not very sport or outdoorsy, at least relative to Williams/Midd (and it doesn't feature the spectacular outdoor scenery of Williams or Midd). Surprised she didn't like Bowdoin, as I'd say that totally fits the bill as well.</p>

7

<p>Thanks for all the feedback. One reason she did not like Bowdoin and, to be honest, has some reservations about Williams and Middlebury, was the somewhat preppy and elitist feel of it - compared to some other schools. It is of course all relative, and I know these schools have made a lot of progress in this respect over the past 10+ years, but she really wants to stay away from Polo, Abercrombie, and the prep school feel. Williams and Middlebury are both in perfect locations for my D. She really likes sports, but well balanced - that was almost a little too important and competitive at Williams and Middlebury for her liking, but she would be fine with it. Bates had a nice balance and feel to her, and with slightly stronger academics and located in Williamstown or Middlebury that would probably have been just right. It is hard to find all things lining up.</p>

8

<p>Dad: I have further posts on Williams on Midd thread. My impression of Williams is not the same as yours -- I do find the kids down to earth. However, there is an ironic self-awareness that is a bit different from the just niceness of the Bates kids. I know my S prefers to rag on his buddies than get a group hug as his friend at Bates did when he was having girl problems. They took him out for his first beer and gave him a massive hug. My S turned green just hearing about it. He lives for humor and irony.</p>

<p>So that's a window into the difference in culture between the schools. What did H's friends do for him in the same situation? Played lots of corny break up songs, generally gently mocked him and ordered in Thai food. He enjoys the gentle ribbing and experiences it as caring.</p>

<p>Academics? Williams in not competitive but the academic standards are definitely more demanding than Bates. I think you would find a similar number at vegetarians at each school. There are always veggie options at Williams and a significant contingent of veggie eaters.</p>

9

<p>On preppy & elitist: I can’t give you a comparison but I’ll try to describe my son’s experience at Williams.</p>

<p>First, ALL of the Northeast privates draw extensively from elite prep schools. You will get prep school kids wherever you end up in that part of the country. Having said that I think the stereotypical prep student has evolved quite a bit in the past 10 years. S/he is no longer pure WASP and that change in demographic continues to be reflected when s/he gets to college. </p>

<p>In Williamstown you are miles away from a shopping mall, a Gap Store or even a Starbucks. Kids tend to dress simply. Brands are ubiquitous but not considered prestigious. Or to put it another way, I don’t get the impression that Williams kids express their personas through their wardrobes. This can work both ways – popped polos vs piercings. I just don’t see clothes (or jewelry) as being at issue. </p>

<p>When I scroll mentally through my son’s friends – over four years I became acquainted with about 20 of them and quite close to about 8 – a few attended elite private prep schools, a few attended low income publics, a few were upper-middle class suburban. A handful, like my son, had backgrounds that defy categorization. The common thread was what I wrote before: bright, curious, kind, confident, multi-talented, multi-faceted. These are interesting kids who do interesting things.</p>

<p>In highschool my son had a very diverse social group. That was partly a function of the international setting and partly personal preference for variety. He had friends who were athletes, friends who were Mormons, friends who were actors, friends who were Boy Scouts – some who fell under all four headings. What they all shared was a terminal appreciation for the absurd, a fascination with the offbeat and ridiculous, and intellectual curiosity about everything you could possibly imagine. Williams worried him in one respect – would they find him too weird, would they laugh at his jokes? Well, as it turned out he found a wonderful group of like-minded souls who spent four years enjoying each other’s company, zany humor included.</p>

<p>Were the academics intense? Yes, but the support IS there. From the professors, from the other students, from the facilities like the writing center. You are not alone. Balance is a very important part of the Williams ethic and even though many of my son’s friends were top scholars they were also involved in plenty of other activities and found ample time for hanging out in the common room. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t say that the atmosphere is competitive, but I would say that the drive to excel is addictive. These are highly energetic kids; they put a lot into whatever it is they’re focusing on. Grades are never compared and never talked about. The learning atmosphere in the classroom is collaborative, not competitive.</p>

<p>I would consider Williams intensely environmentally conscious. Again, I can’t give you a comparison, but I can say that that there’s a high level of participation in environmental issues and that the Outing Club offers a wide range of terrific opportunities to get upclose and personal with Nature. In addition to the various treks and mountain climbs, my son became a WOOLF guide (the first year backpacking trip) went winter camping in the Berkshires and spent Spring break hiking the Grand Canyon.</p>

10

<p>"Bates had a nice balance and feel to her, and with slightly stronger academics and located in Williamstown or Middlebury that would probably have been just right." I would look into carleton in Minnesota. Its not located in a spectacular resort-like mountain valley a la Midd, but has an outdoorsy, close-to-nature feel to its campus and it is located in a picture, perfect small town. Just as academically intense and prestigious as Midd and Williams and less athletically competitve, though many students do play sports. Also, much less preppy and with a much higher number of students on financial aid than any of the New England Schools.</p>

11

<p>Thanks. I agree about Carleton - it keeps "floating to the top" of schools that look like they could be very good matches from my research. However, my D seems to want to limit the search to the NE (from eastern PA and north), so we are working within that. I am sure Williams, Middlebury, Bates, and maybe Haverford/Swarthmore would all be very good, and we will try to fit in some visits/stays while they are in session. With Bates feeling kind of "right" maybe we should not feel a need to pursue the more prestigious/competitive schools so much, but it somehoe feels like you should knowing that she probably can get in to all of these - we initially thought of Bates as the safety, and did not expect it to be the one that left the most positive initial impression.</p>

12

<p>Dad: If she would be happiest there, I really don't think the difference in prestige is very meaningful. Honestly.</p>

<p>You are splitting hairs.</p>

<p>The difference between S, who attends Williams, and his best friend, who attends Bates, is minimal. Their stats were pretty close.</p>

<p>The only difference I can really see is that S is a little more unconventional and quirky. He is a devoted musician whereas friend has given up music to pursue medicine. They are both fine young men.</p>

<p>Bates had as many kids from preps as the others, but perhaps their abolitionist tradition has left a ambience of service; I don't know. If she is really serious about Bates make sure the adcom knows she'd go. They don't like to be viewed as a safety.</p>

<p>Friend was accepted only at Bates and Colby.</p>

<p>S was accepted at Williams, Wesleyan, Brown, Vassar and U of Chicago. However, he was rejected at Bates. I don't think they thought he'd go. He wouldn't have; they were right. So make sure they know she really really likes Bates.</p>

<p>I know someone who turned down Hamilton for Bard, Harvard for Williams, Brown for Barnard. Fit really is everything. These are all prestigious, good schools.</p>

13

<p>mythmom, in a nutshell, you covered more than all the "chances" posts I've read. Nicely done, in an honest and credible fashion. Fit is the one and only goal.</p>

14

<p>Thanks so much for your support. I am sincerely committed to helping kids end up where they would flourish the most, and I do believe we need to pierce the mystiques of all these schools.</p>

<p>I am pleased that each of my children ended up at his/her perfect school.</p>

<p>Because I am a college prof, perhaps the fate of young people is very important to me.</p>

15

<p>"maybe we should not feel a need to pursue the more prestigious/competitive schools so much, but it somehoe feels like you should knowing that she probably can get in to all of these "</p>

<p>If your child has the stats and ec's that would make her a sure admit to Williams or Swat as you suggest then it would be imo a mistake not to pursue that goal. They have more resources to apply per student, better reputations, and higher success rates in placement at top grad schools. Bates is a great school but it is not on the level of AWS. Please take my comment in the possitive way it is offered and as just one Eph parents opinion. If you have the choice of AWS you should take it. Better schools same price. With a 30% accept rate fit at Bates is easier to argue. At AWS with 17% admit rates, fit is more determined by the school that the student.</p>

16

<p>ican'tfindaname, these days nobody truly
[quote]
has the stats and ec's that would make her a sure admit to Williams or Swat<a href="and%20I%20don't%20believe%20the%20OP%20made%20that%20statement">/quote</a>. </p>

<p>I respectfully disagree with your assertion that it would be a big mistake not to apply to any top LAC other than the USNWR top three, on the grounds you're staking here (reputation, resources, grad placement). For one thing, the reputation of a school has virtually nothing to do with how a student feels while he or she is there - whether he or she is motivated to make the most of those resources, for example. More important, differences in quality at this level are awfully hard to parse.</p>

<p>My own D is at one of the schools you're touting, and she knew it was right for her very early in the game. Should she have listened to the numerous people who told her she was "crazy" not to apply to Harvard or Princeton? All the reasons they were stating sounded a lot like yours. </p>

<p>I absolutely understand your feelings about Williams; I have similar feelings about my own alma mater (also one of those schools). And I understand the impulse to steer kids toward things the adults in their lives consider the best. But one person's best isn't necessarily the same as another's, and differences in quality at these schools are not such that a kid who is really drawn to Bates should be told it isn't good enough for her.</p>

17

<p>HarrietMWelsch: You are wise.</p>

18

<p>mythmom: You are wiser. You'd already said much the same.</p>

19

<p>"and I don't believe the OP made that statement"</p>

<p>Posting #11 states she could probably get into any of the schools as does posting #1 ("She can probably get in to any school, but does not feel a need to go to the most prestigious she can get in to"). I take the comments at face value, but agree with you that these days who knows. Had it not been stated that the applicant can in fact select Bates over WAS I would not have made my observation. Your comments regarding friends who questioned the wisdom of not applying to Harvard or Princeton I think does make the distinction regarding these schools. WAS are in the class with HPYS but with different focus and method. Bates is not. Of course this is splitting hairs to a degree but that is often the point on some of these discussions. Williams (and I am biased having just come back from there yesterday) can spend 80k a year to educate each student and those kind of resources imo allow them to deliver a more robust product. If you had a choice between a school that can commit more resources than another it seems logical to me to at least consider it. In the end the field under review is very narrow, high priced, private, exclusive, New England LAC's and if you could get into any of them you should pick the best. If the choices included Ivies and flagship states then lots of other issues come into play. Here it seems to be picking the best LAC, and Bates, although a wonderful school, is not it.</p>

20

<p>CDad, It sounds like a win-win situation for your daughter. Although we didn't visit Bates, it has a good reputation. A youngish colleague of mine is a graduate and he's certainly an intelligent, charismatic fellow (How's that for extrapolation?)</p>

<p>Unless your daughter is trying to choose a ED school, the fact that she loves Bates as much as other more selectives is just more good news. </p>

<p>My son really loved Kenyon and although in the end he chose Williams, it made him w.i.s.t.f.u.l (the word that can't be written) to withdraw his Kenyon application. I think of Bates being similar to Kenyon -- a very good school full of capable, friendly kids with excellent professors.</p>