<p>icantfindaname: My S is a very very happy Williams sophomore, but I can state without any hesitation at all that my D's education at Barnard is equally rigorous and equally "robust".</p>
<p>In fact, in most respects, it is more "academic". That isn't necessarily a good thing, but a difference it style. It is more the U of Chicago intellectualism, whereas Williams stresses creative thinking more.</p>
<p>Each style is appropriate for the child who chose it, in our case, thank goodness.</p>
<p>I am a college prof myself so I have many good yardsticks by which to judge these things.</p>
<p>And 40% of her classes are at Columbia and she says the Barnard classes are more rigorous, and I believe her. She's a senior now and a brilliant girl.</p>
<p>I would never be dazzled by $$$$ or USNWR rankings. The profs are educated in the same programs and the education just does not differ very much at all.</p>
<p>One thing that does differ is the student body. That's one reason it is sensible to choose a school by its student body. If s student likes the Batesies greater friendliness or more laid-back attitude, all well and good.</p>
<p>My S is madly in love with Williams so you won't get any argument from me about that.</p>
<p>As always, I am impressed by the devotion mothers have to their children's choices of schools. It takes a certain kind of intellectual adroitness to note that the top 3 schools are interchangeable and each has something in common with the next 5 and those have something in common with the next 5 and so on down the line. Soon there is no difference between Barnard and Holly Cross and WAS. Let's not forget St Olaf as being as rigorous as Harvard. I guess in the end the best school is the one you want to go to that lets you in. It is this kind of variable objectivity that will show a graduate from U of Idaho to be the intellectual superior to one with a Harvard Law degree. And I guess that will show that U of I is better than Harvard and Princeton.</p>
<p>Well actually, I have a fundamental problem with judging anybody to be anybody else's "intellectual superior" solely on the basis of the institution granting their degree(s). It isn't "variable objectivity" that makes people judge others' intelligence by the college they attended. There's another name for that.</p>
<p>icantfindaname, your slippery slope argument doesn't apply here, and I expect you know it. Within tiers (and arguably beyond, but let's stick to tiers for this thread), fit trumps ranking. (And whose rankings are the best, anyway?) Picture what could happen if someone forced a kid who feels better at, say, Hamilton to go to Swarthmore, and then tell me the kid will thrive, make the most of the opportunities there, and end up with a demonstrably superior education.</p>
<p>"Picture what could happen if someone forced a kid who feels better at, say, Hamilton to go to Swarthmore, and then tell me the kid will thrive, make the most of the opportunities there, and end up with a demonstrably superior education."</p>
<p>Not sure I get your point, but if you are saying that the academic rigor at Swat might be too much for someone who feels better at Hamilton, I agree. But here the slippery slope arguement does apply, Mythmom as always takes the #27 school (moving up, way to go) and argues it is the equal if not the superior of the #1 based on a sample of one person. So now they are all interchangable. To visit a school once, in this case Williams and to draw the conclusion that it is too preppy too sports focused not friendly and therefore an inferior choice to Bates is an opinion someone is entiltled to, (Stepford Wives comment was not very nice) I just disagree. "Fit trumps Ranking". The schools determines the fit not the applicant, 80% of the time.</p>
<p>I have the experience of looking at course outlines, syllabi, and papers and requirements. Plus Barnard requires a thesis that demands primary research. Williams doesn't even ask for a thesis.</p>
<p>Is your judgment based solely on rankings in a magazine whose aim is to make money? Or on endowment?</p>
<p>I did say Barnard was better. I said in many cases its demands are more rigorous. I'm not even sure that's a good thing.</p>
<p>However, my comments are not made "based on one person." And how would you know whether or not it was true?</p>
<p>I love Williams and I don't need to rank it above other schools to love and appreciate it.</p>
<p>I've always found snobbery about brand names a little silly, haven't you? After all, a Jaguar is in the shop more than a Toyota.</p>
<p>Now I am not making an analogy. Williams is a wonderful school. But why insist that the brand is more important than a student's experience?</p>
<p>As for rigor, someone posted that at a school in Washington, Puget Sound, the violin program is so demanding you have to pass a jury just to qualify for lessons. I am grateful that is not the case at Williams. In this case, rigor is not a good thing.</p>
<p>Hamilton or Swat, Bates or Williams? In the real world these are not actual choices. They are not overlap schools, they do not admit the same students except in rare instances. So no need to sweat it, the opportunity to choose between them will not come up.</p>
<p>"After all, a Jaguar is in the shop more than a Toyota"</p>
<p>How do you know that to be true? Maybe because a recognized and respected rating service like JD Powers tells you so.</p>
<p>This is a thread about Williams College and if someone wants those associated in some way with Williams to agree that it is "too preppy too elitist too Stepford" (all op qoutes) and therefore inferior to Bates, I for one will not reach that conclusion.</p>
<p>
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Hamilton or Swat, Bates or Williams? In the real world these are not actual choices. They are not overlap schools, they do not admit the same students except in rare instances.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They are actual choices in the real world. Being designated "overlap schools" by a guidebook means that it happens very frequently; it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. And the notion that they "do not admit the same students except in rare cases" is pretty far off base. No, I don't have access to the statistics with which I can demonstrate this for you. But there are plenty of reasons why a student might look at and like, apply to and be accepted to, all four of these schools. I know more than a handful of kids who have gotten into both Bates and Williams, and Bates and Swat. And two who got into Hamilton and Williams - not interested in Swat.</p>
<p>Your understanding of these things seems to be based entirely on one guidebook and one magazine. I'm sure that's not true, but that's the way it's coming across here.</p>
<p>They are not actual choices because almost no one would turn down Williams or Swat for Bates or Williams or Swat for Hamilton. Safety schools for some, perfect fit for others. The schools (WAS) track who they lose accepted students to and its the top 10 universities and top 5 lacs. To those who choose different best wishes. My understanding is based on a child at Williams who was accepted at Amherst and Harvard and somewhere in my closet a masters in education that I never used.</p>
<p>Yes, students have done so and will continue to do so. You're acknowledging this yourself, with "to those who choose different . . ." </p>
<p>Your personal view that it's "almost no one" who might do so, has absolutely no bearing on whether such a choice could be valid, worthwhile, and enriching for a student who could get in anywhere.</p>
<p>Hey you could be right. But in most cases the most competitive seek the most competitive. Jordan played in the NBA, Phelps swam in the Olympics, Tiger plays on the PGA. Clinton wanted to be President rather than Senator. These are the most competitive admit schools in the world and those that apply to them get it. Seldom except for financial reasons would a student drop 25 spots regardless of who's ranking list it is.</p>
<p>The original assumption was a student who could get into any LAC they cared to apply to. The kind of academic horsepower that suggests, in order to make admittance to WAS a layup, has to be on the order of 2350+ sat 4.6 gpa near 800's on sat II's stellar recommendations and ec's. I just don't see that person turning down WAS for Bates as having made the best choice.</p>
<p>And why so belligerent? I have no personal investment here. I don't need to think my child is at "the best." I rather respect the education provided at most colleges.</p>
<p>And yes, I do think my classes are pretty special, and I am not ashamed to serve the segment of the population I do.</p>
<p>I am not a snob and have had many brilliant students, some succeeding in circumstances that were quite harrowing including loss of sight, loss of country. </p>
<p>Why disparage education? I'm confused. Is it just to level a personal insult? Okay, then I give in and cry Uncle. I really don't want to continue this.</p>
<p>To the OP: I hope your daughter finds the school that works best for her. Good luck in your search.</p>
<p>As someone who's close to taking the plunge and actually applying to schools (Williams if I get up enough nerve), I'm living breathing proof that fit matters quite a bit. So does grad school placement and overall school resources, but at the end of the day I'd rather be going to college in a place where I feel comfortable enough to excel and explore what resources ARE available on campus. There's no point in being somewhere that I would be lonely/intimidated/unhappy, even if the place itself has a fabulous reputation. My dad actually made that mistake: he was dazzled by Harvard when he got in, so he went, although he had trouble fitting in and was kind of lonely for his four years; in retrospect, he says he should have gone to Oberlin. I don't intend to repeat this mistake. Who knows? Maybe I'd choose Mount Holyoke over Swarthmore, or something like that. </p>
<p>Just the fact that we're all posting on the forums of some of the most selective colleges in the country shows that we're all (admit it or not) somewhat influenced by rankings and prestige. Why carry it further, especially if it could potentially interfere with the comfortability of the student?</p>