Williams versus Macaulay Hunter

Colleges and Universities A-Z Williams College
1

<p>Advice anyone? My D just found out she has been fortunate to receive a very generous scholarship from Williams, which will cover everything except $8000/year (including room, board & books). At the same time she also very fortunately got a full ride to Macaulay at Hunter College (Cuny) that covers everything but food; the fourth year she'll have to pay dorm & food. In addition, Macaulay offers a $7500 stipend that pays for unpaid internships and/or overseas travel (costs such as airfare and food; tuition would be covered). Macaulay is in Manhattan and though new, has increasingly impressive statistics and is very well connected to many prestigious internships, in politics, the arts (eg New Yorker, ABC, Met Museum of Art, etc etc). We live in South Jersey, so Macaulay is easier for her to come home and visit, something important to her at this point, although Williams is also not terrible. </p>

<p>She will be going up to visit Williams next Monday, but in the meantime, I wanted your opinion. </p>

<p>Before you answer reflexively (Williams!) let me add that my D is not into reputation per se and she is certainly not 'into' brand name for the sake of brand name. Her most important thing is fit and equally important is how she would be positioned for internships and post graduate scholarships. What are you thoughts? I realize that in some senses it's apples versus oranges. Money-wise, the difference to us will be approximately $4000/year not including Macaulay's additional $7500 stipend. This is significant, but with such a low cost differential, it becomes much less significant than, say, $100K in debt versus zero.</p>

<p>For those who have gone to Williams: What would you say the positives of your school are? PLEASE be honest about any negatives. I realize it's personal. My D is interested in:</p>

<p>Visual arts, fiction writing & linguistics and her hobbies are singing and archaeology (has gone on a dig in England and loved it; she worked all year to pay her own way). </p>

<p>Thank you for your thoughts.</p>

2

<p>Wiiliams does not have a strong presence in linguistics. It doesn’t even have a department. It does have courses and she could work to put together more of a program. It does a very good English Department with good writing courses and one of the most highly regarded Art Departments in the country. There are two art museums on campus and an exciting museum of contemporary art nearby.</p>

<p>I am sure Williams will provide all the follow-up opportunity she could want.</p>

<p>I think this IS a case of how she wants to spend four years of her life and who she wants to socialize with.</p>

<p>I am not being a snob. I can very easily see that the diversity of the NYC honors college might intrigue her. At Williams she is going to meet kids who are diverse in a different way – from many different socio-economic backgrounds.</p>

<p>I have a D who spent 4 years of college in NYC and an S who is finishing his 3rd at Williams. I don’t think their opportunities differed very much. He is staying at Williams this summer to do research in his chosen field.</p>

<p>I would think FA like that from Williams is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and although I tremendously support public education (I teach at a public college) my instinct says that Williams could do more for her.</p>

<p>That said, if she says, “no way – too rural – it’s a bubble, i wouldn’t be happy.” That’s valid, too.</p>

<p>My only advice is not to concentrate so much on outcomes and let her select for the present.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions.</p>

3

<p>Is the $7500 every year or over the course of the four years? I believe Williams offers some internship funding (or an exemption from the summer earnings expectation for one summer) as well as paid summer research opportunities.</p>

<p>This strikes me as a country mouse vs. city mouse decision. Very different settings, great options either way. If she’s into visual arts she should check out MassMOCA while she’s up there.</p>

<p>My daughter is at Williams on financial aid. One of the nice things about Williamstown is that there is very little need for extra cash. If your daughter is frugal she may be able to get by in the city on not a lot of money, but that’s something to think about.</p>

4

<p>THank you both so much for your extremely thoughtful replies. This also helps me in figuring out what to ask when we get up there. Obviously only my D can know if the fit feels right for her, and the decision will ultimately be up to her, but this helps in that I can know what to ask for my part. For instance, internship or study abroad policies for those on a very limited budget like us. </p>

<p>Williams does sound incredible. It’s just a very big decision. I do have another question–Will my D feel out of place as a Jewish kid with not much money? Is there a feeling of inclusiveness or can Williams get cliquey? It’s a very small college, which is a positive but can be a negative too. One of the plusses of Macaulay is that it is VERY multiethnic and diverse. We come from an area in South Jersey that is very diverse, and that is what my D is used to (all religions including Hindi and Muslim and Buddhist, all races you can think of–we joke it’s like the UN. It’s awesome). How diverse is Williams? You mentioned socioeconomically? But my D would BE the ‘diverse’ for many of these students. THanks for your thoughts–</p>

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<p>Oh–PS It’s $7500 total, not per year. THanks</p>

6

<p>No. Many Jewish kids. Jewish prez and last prez was Jewish as well, and had the kids over to “break the fast.”</p>

<p>We are also on FA, and my kid has never felt out of it at all. He works in the library for all his spending money and really enjoys it.</p>

<p>All opportunities are open to folks with FA.</p>

<p>No, Williams can’t match the diversity you speak of, but it is not cliquey like some colleges I have heard about. The entry system (20 - 25 frosh kids who live in the dorm together) starts them off in a diverse group.</p>

<p>I don’t think any of your worries are well founded, but I <em>do</em> think your D might enjoy the city experience more. On the other hand, it can be fun to try something new. The choice will up to her. Isn’t she lucky?</p>

<p>Good luck in making your decision. I wish you both well.</p>

7

<p>Williams is about 10 percent Jewish, maybe a bit more, but I’d say most of the Jews are not terribly observant. There is, however, a GREAT Jewish center, beautiful facility, an amazing campus Cantor, a small core group of more committed / observant Jewish students who do Shabbat dinner, etc. By the way, if the new President (Adam Falk) is Jewish, that would be news to me, so far as I know his religion has never been announced. The prior two Presidents were, however, Jewish. In terms of diversity, you are never going to match a CUNY school, but Williams has really improved in this regard. Recent classes have been around 35 percent American students of color and 7 percent internationals. Economically, however, Williams (like most of its peers) still draws primarily from upper middle class and upper class students. Since there is so little to spend money on and around campus (no fancy clubs or bars or clothing stores, etc.), I’m not sure that has AS much of an impact as it would some places, but certainly, the majority of kids are relatively well-off (of course, there are plenty of exceptions), and folks should be aware of that going in. </p>

<p>Unless she REALLY wants to be in NYC and/or is just not fond of Williams when she visits, I’d say you gotta pick Williams. I have a family member who went to Hunter (a long time ago, but still, and my sense is that the CUNY system used to be MUCH stronger than it is now) who would have been shocked to hear that someone is even considering this as a difficult choice. Now again, you have to go where you are going to be happy, that goes without saying. But that being said, if she is uncertain about that (and if she wasn’t, I am guessing you wouldn’t be asking), then Williams is an no brainer. In terms of reputation, faculty, class size, peers, resources, post-grad opportunities, alumni network, classroom experience, on basically every measureable dimension, Williams offers dramatically more, especially when you consider the financial aid you are receiving. Williams spends, on average, 80k per year per student, I can’t imagine Hunter comes remotely close to that. It’s not a matter of snobbery – hell, most people have never heard of Williams anyway – it’s a matter of the resources and opportunities that Williams affords when compared to a public institution. </p>

<p>In terms of connections to the art world, Williams can’t be beat by ANY college or university. There is a reason they call it the Williams Art Mafia, just a huge number of art museums with Williams grad in prominent roles. Not to mention, three big-time museums on or around campus, and a spectacular, enormous dedicated studio art facility which she should definitely check out. Now of course, the Berkshires can’t come close to competing with NYC when it comes to art offerings, but then again, you are a bigger fish in a much smaller pond, so you have opportunities as a student that you likely wouldn’t get at, say, the MOMA. But again, if you want connection to the art world, Williams is truly second to none, at least in terms of museum curators and the like. </p>

<p>Again, if after visiting Williams, she thinks she won’t be happy there, she should stick with Hunter. But if she is at ALL ambivalent between the two, Williams is just on a completely different level in terms of the opportunities she’ll be afforded, both during and after college.</p>

8

<p>I have to thank all of you who keep taking your valuable time to answer so thoughtfully. Honestly, it is SO helpful. I particularly admire how, though you obviously love Williams, you are respectful possible choice my D might make. I think she’ll find out a lot once she visits. As far as Hunter, yes, it has definitely gone downhill since my parents went there in the 1950s. But Macaulay is a new privately endowed program within Hunter. It was very hard to get into; in fact the stats are more selective than Williams (SATs, GPAs). It also seems to have a really excellent pipeline into an extremely diverse ranges of opportunities via fellowships and internships, both in NYC and out. But one thing I’ve been worried about are the classes. They have four mandatory “Macaulay-only” classes, but then they take ‘regular’ honors classes at Hunter. Not knocking these–there are many extremely excellent profs there and I’m sure many excellent students. But you’re right there, that on average the quality of student is going to be higher in the classroom at Williams. Then Williams has these amazing tutorial thing; I went to University of London for a year and experienced this as an undergrad; it was awesome; I learned a great deal. My main question is actually the summer study opportunities and study abroad. I have zero extra money to help her out wtih, and in fact she’ll have to work while there. If she wanted to study with a prof in the summer or go abroad, what sort of scholarship help might be available and how competitive is it? If she went ot Williams, she’d want to take advantage of it to its fullest. Thanks once more.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the info on Macauley, I was not previously familiar. The Hunter alum I know (a BIT more recent than the 50’s, but still from some time ago) will be interested to hear about it …</p>

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<p>Hoveringmom, congratulations to your daughter – and you – on two wonderful opportunities. Williams is often criticized as being too small, too elite, too low profile, but it seems your daughter has managed to find an excellent program that is even smaller, more selective and less well known!:)</p>

<p>I think, as others have said, the decision will (or should, at least) come down to where she would most like to spend her undergraduate days. My son, who graduated from Williams a few years ago, initially thought that he would prefer an urban college, but upon visiting was deeply drawn to Williams’ natural beauty and the insular aspect of the campus community.</p>

<p>Williams has one of the best art and art history departments in the country. Art history students have many hands on opportunities to at the three museums that are on or near campus – The Clark, MassMOCA and the Williams College Museum. New York is close enough for regular visits.</p>

<p>Your daughter should set aside some time while she’s at Williams to visit all three museums. She’ll be surprised at the level of sophistication.</p>

<p>Every year the Steamboat Foundation funds a Williams student for a summer internship at the Isabella Stewart Gardiner museum in Boston. My son participated in this program and it was transformational. Many of his colleagues in the art history department secured high profile internships as well and have gone on to top graduate programs.</p>

<p>Aside from visual arts, Williams has an excellent English department with several well regarded writers on the faculty. Linguistics – none per se. Singing – lots of opportunities. Archeology – less so, but anthropology is very strong. </p>

<p>Several of my son’s friends were given stipends that allowed them to travel abroad during the summer or during Winter Study (January term). The career counseling department is strong and the the alumni/ae network is a phenomenal asset. If you spend some time with the career counseling site, you’ll see what I mean. Start here: [Internship</a> Guide | Find an Internship | Jobs & Internships | Office of Career Counseling](<a href=“http://www.williams.edu/go/careers/internship_guide.php]Internship”>http://www.williams.edu/go/careers/internship_guide.php) </p>

<p>Williams also provides extensive support for graduate school – recommendations and counseling. </p>

<p>My son stayed on campus all four years – including January Winter Study, but many of his friends went abroad for junior year, including the Williams at Oxford program. My understanding was that most travel expenses were covered in the student’s financial aid package.</p>

<p>Williams has tried very hard in the past decade to attract a diversity – racial, religious, ethnic, economic, geographic ,you name it. But there is no question that Western Massachusetts is not the most diverse part of the country. </p>

<p>For my son who had only ever lived in big cities, in New York and Asia, this was a bit of a culture shock, but ultimately the serenity and beauty of the Berkshires was a positive for him.</p>

<p>For me, though, the most remarkable aspect of my son’s Williams experience would be the friends that he made there – both students and faculty. These are bright, happy, energetic, multifaceted, talented kids who three years on are doing all kinds of wonderful things all over the world. Williams as a stepping stone to the future is incomparable.</p>

11

<p>This may sound elitist, but CUNY is a bit of a joke. You just don’t have the same intellectual vibe from the student population as you would get from Williams. And the CUNY courses are watered down a bit because, well, they are city schools that serve students ranging from a 75 to a 90, usually. CUNY Honors of course has a smarter student population, but you can’t escape the fact that your daughter will still be attending school where the overwhelming majority of the class may have been middle-to-bottom of their high school class. (This is just my perception, and perhaps my friends’ perceptions of CUNY in general, not backed by any data.)</p>

<p>Then again, Macaulay sounds like a great program, free Macbook and free money and NYC, and your daughter will probably enjoy the numerous privileges and opportunities the program has to offer. It’s like being served a silver platter just to attend their college. (Some people say it’s a marketing gimmick to try to boost the CUNY system by attracting good students–just putting it out there.) </p>

<p>Paying 8k for Williams is worth it though.</p>

12

<p>You are concerned about your daughter feeling like an outsider. I can’t imagine feeling more like an outsider than walking into a Hunter class with your free Macaulay Macbook and everyone looking at you as “diiferent” from other Hunter students. At Williams she’ll be one of many smart students.</p>

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<p>Posts #11 and #12: You guys are being elitist. There is something to be said for urban diversity and serious folks trying to raise themselves by their bootstraps.</p>

<p>I dear friend’s daughter chose Hunter’s film program over NYU’s because she felt it less sexist and elitist.</p>

<p>I have a DS at Williams, and he loves the school as much as you do, but I respect the dilemma the OP has presented.</p>

<p>I hope her D choses Williams too, but that doesn’t mean we’re right.</p>

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<p>^#12</p>

<p>In all reality, one very well could sign up for all honors classes and never be put in that situation; plus it isn’t as if there aren’t any other Macaulay students taking classes there as well. By pure entrance statistics, you will be with just as smart if not ‘smarter’ students at Macaulay even if there are less of them.</p>

15

<p>I really welcome all responses–Again, thank you to all who are spending your valuable time giving me your thoughts. I think I mentioned we plan on visiting this Monday-Tuesday. I’m hopeful that this visit will help my daughter in her decision. Her (fabulous) guidance counselor strongly recommended that she walk off the beaten path from time to time, as obviously Williams will be trying to ‘sell’ Williams and will put its best face forward. She’s planning on attending classes; this is offered on two days, and she plans on going to both. Any other recommendations?</p>

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<p>As a student who has lived his whole life in NYC (except for college now), and has most of his friends in the CUNY system, take my word and choose williams (I do not go to williams btw, never even applied). Cuny Hunter honors maybe a “good” program, but the students there are far from spectacular ( i suppose there are a few exceptions). Almost all the kids i know in the honors program could have never gotten into williams or other top LAC’s/ ivies. Of course, if you want to be in NYC and cannot take williams location or some other aspect, then that is another matter. From a purely academic standpoint however, williams is without a doubt superior.</p>

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<p>^I agree. Most students who enroll in Macaulay Honors couldn’t get into a top university. Macaulay Honors is the “safety school” for many top students in NYC, and pretty much none of them go unless for financial reasons (but top colleges these days are so affordable). If your daughter enrolls in Macaulay she will likely be with students who got waitlisted by Macaulay in the first place because most students who get admitted probably have better options. As for staying in NYC for the internships and such, it’s still not easy to get a good internship. You have Columbia (6000 undergrad and many more grad students) to compete with! (And NYU as well, but I won’t even go into that.)</p>

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<p>Guys I really don’t think it does Williams proud to run down another program or another person’s reasons for liking that program. Williams stands on its own legs.</p>

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<p>^immortalix</p>

<p>It is sort of ironic that you state that “top colleges these days are so affordable” when you yourself used QuestBridge, a service designed “to help low-income students with admission and scholarships.”</p>

<p>Believe it or not, there are plenty of smart students that simply can’t afford to attend the top universities because they don’t have federal grants and the like coming out of the wazoo like many low-income families and don’t have the cash available as many wealthy families. Count yourself lucky because you are certainly the exception and not the norm when it comes to financial decisions in the college process.</p>

<p>Additionally your comments are unfounded regarding the waitlisting. I’m with mythmom on this one, if you are as clueless and derogatory (as your post might suggest), you are better off keeping your mouth shut when someone has an actual decision to make.</p>

20

<p>boone, the kid is giving his opinion…</p>

<p>if it bothers you then get lost…</p>