Williams vs Dartmouth (with Vandy & Vassar on the side)

Hey, Dartmouth sophomore here. I’d like to try and help inform your decision from the Dartmouth side of things. As you may know, we have a number of successful alumni from our acting and theatre program, like Mindy Kaling, Aisha Tyler, Rachel Dratch (SNL) and Shonda Rhimes (creator of Grey’s Anatomy and How to Get Away With Murder) who have been very successful in their careers. I personally know a number of theatre kids here, and there are frequent extremely well attended productions run by Dartmouth as well as by students (a number were in fact hard to get into when I was there). This has continued even via zoom (e.g. The Radical Joy Project | Hopkins Center for the Arts at Dartmouth).

We have partnerships with a large local theater where students frequently intern and perform at. The actors and directors form there frequently come to give guest talks and performances at our college classes in the humanities. The performing arts department is much beloved by students for its engaged faculty and interesting classes. A freshman I know who came in as an intended chem major took one acting class VIA ZOOM and decided to switch to theatre. So, you will definitely have a fulfilling academic experience in your field at Dartmouth.

However, both Dartmouth and Williams would put you in a good place for a top graduate school of theatre, though Yale in particular might favor Dartmouth grads a little more. Both Williams and Dartmouth have small class sizes, accomplished faculty who also love to teach, and liberal arts curricula. Dartmouth may have more students, but the student to faculty ratio is the same so in terms of undergrad focus they are the same. The main difference that comes with the number is that Williams is about half athletes, whereas Dartmouth is about a quarter athletes. Therefore Williams has a much larger preppy athletic culture than we do (though that is not the only culture present for sure). However, both schools are very quirky and generally diverse so you should be able to find your place. Another difference I felt when I was considering these schools is that the small LACs lik Williams and Vassar seemed just too small for me. I realized I wanted more options in terms of academics, social life and people to meet than those colleges seemed to offer me. In that regard, Dartmouth seemed the perfect size, combing the close sense of community and individual academic attention of an LAC, with the diversity of people, programs and opportunities that come with its larger comparative size.

In regards to greek life, I wouldn’t listen to what other people have said on this thread. None appear to be connected to Dartmouth. Here is a response I gave to someone else about them (warning: it’s a bit long):
Hey! To be clear, every elite school had a frat centric or finals club centric social atmosphere of something of that nature like 40 years ago. It was just very white guy dominated at the time. Dartmouth is only known for it due to the Animal House movie, based on a now ended frat.

In the last few decades, finals/eating clubs and frats have reformed at top institutions, and Dartmouth has really led the way on that. We had to, since that ridiculously overexaggerated movie made us unfairly well known for greek life.

As a result, unlike most schools, almost all parties and events at frats have become open to everyone with a Dartmouth ID. This is important, since these spaces cannot be dominated any longer by the same demographic. Places like finals clubs at Princeton on the other hand, are largely exclusive i.e. you need to know someone on the inside to get into events.

Furthermore, a lot of frats have changed or popped up which are very different from traditional frats. Many are just like student societies, focused on social justice, or playing board games or video games together. The general use of the term greek life does not really represent the majority of societies we have here. Several are gender inclusive.

Also, most students involved in greek societies don’t live there, also unusual. Most live in college housing. As a result, people’s involvement in greek societies generally only represents a fraction of what they do at Dartmouth. So, it’s quite easy to have an active social life at Dartmouth without rushing a society. I don’t plan on it, for example, and I’m not all worried. I will always have access to parties if I want it, and besides there are tons of other things going on in the weekends, like movies, theater productions, game nights etc. These are all very well attended, and I’ve often chosen not to go to a party to attend some of these

Of course, like any college, the party scene is alive and well. So the majority of your daughter’s friends will be going out on the weekends. But as I said, there’s always other options, and plenty of people who don’t choose that. But people at these schools are a lot more interesting and less traditional party people than in high school. I never partied in high school but now I do on most weekends for one night at least. And the first few times, I didn’t even drink, and there was NO pressure on me to do so.

Hope I helped, lmk if you have any more questions!

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@Gogreen19 wrote: “However, both Dartmouth and Williams would put you in a good place for a top graduate school of theatre, though Yale in particular might favor Dartmouth grads a little more.”

@GoGreen19: Do you have any support for the above statement regarding Yale’s alleged preference ?

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Not for the Drama school in particular, which is why I said “might,” but I do know that Dartmouth has generally been more of a feeder school to Yale’s other graduate programs (like the law and management schools) than Williams. That speaks far more to Dartmouth and Yale’s longstanding relationship than to any difference in actual academic preparedness. For USC and Tisch, I imagine there would be no difference in preference.

@Gogreen19 Although Williams may have a higher percentage of athletes, it’s actually 33%, not much different than Dartmouth’s 25%.
As far as being preppy, I would suggest that @hungha look at the Williams Class of 2025 Instagram account. This is not a predominantly preppy group. FWIW, the recruited athletes are mostly in the older posts because they were admitted ED or were taking a gap year.
All this being said, if theater is your top priority, I still think that Vassar is the best choice.

May I ask your source? Williams athletics seems to say I
underestimated…Athletics at Williams – Department of Athletics

“At Williams College, for example, about 30 percent of students are recruited athletes, according to the college.” This is from a NYT opinion piece published in 2019. Opinion | The Admissions Scandal Is Really a Sports Scandal - The New York Times

The 60% you cited includes anyone who plays on a club team and jv, along with varsity teams. The vast majority of students are not recruited athletes. It’s important to keep in mind that Williams has a PE requirement (4 credits) and being on a team (club and jv included) fulfills that requirement.

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@Gogreen19 FYI according to this link: Top Feeders to Law School of students graduating from Williams, a plurality attend Yale Law School

I never said Williams was not also a feeder school to Yale, just less so than Dartmouth. I know that Dartmouth has proportionally more alumni at YLS than Williams. And according to the “Top Feeder Rankings (adjusted for undergraduate enrollment)” list on that same site, Dartmouth is substantially ahead of Williams as a feeder school. In any case, I would advise not confusing the OP with tangential arguments. I only brought it up to answer Publisher’s complaint, my main points about Dartmouth speak for themselves.

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@Hungha did you decide yet?

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This expands beyond Yale and beyond law to the other top feeder schools, and it’s quite dated, but I’ve never seen anything more recent so this is the best we have:

Brian Leiter's Law School Reports.

Even though Williams is a few spots above Dartmouth on this list, the reality is that neither is better than the other when it comes to getting into ANY top graduate program. (H/P/Y/S are in a class of their own, but honestly anyone who chooses Dartmouth or Williams or Swarthmore over one of those will end up with the same types of post-grad opportunities, generally speaking, as well, if you sample ten random alums from any of these schools 15 years out you will not be able to tell who went to say Harvard vs. who went to a top liberal arts school).

Yale Law (or any other top law school) will view a candidate from Williams and Dartmouth with the same GPA and same LSAT as identically strong candidates. Other than its own undergraduates, Yale is not going to have a “special” relationship with any particular school. There are a ton of Harvard grads at Yale Law, for example, because Harvard enrolls really really smart students who do really well on standardized test and who are heavily focused on achievement by conventional metrics of prestige. If there is some minor variation year to year among the preferences of Williams or Dartmouth students for, say, Harvard v. Yale v. NYU v. UChicago v. Stanford (for law schools), it does not reflect those law schools’ relative preferences. So anyone who is suggesting you should choose one over the other based on post-graduate opportunities does not have an informed perspective. Between the two, assuming finances are the same, you should go where you would be happiest.

As for the athletics question, yes, there is an enormous difference between varsity athletes and people who, say, play ultimate frisbee or intramural soccer. I do think Williams (like Dartmouth from everything I’ve heard) has an overall fairly sporty / outdoorsy culture, which you would expect from a school so far removed from urban amenities. But at least for someone like myself, that meant playing intramural basketball and soccer despite not being able to even make a varsity team for either in high school. And there are a healthy plurality of students who remain wholly uninvolved in athletics of any kind, even recreational. You do not in any way need to be an athlete of any kind, let alone a competitive athlete, to fit in at Williams.

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For Williams, take a look at the Williams Outing Club, amazing group and facilities for hiking, canoeing, rafting, snow shoeing, skiing, entire campus is involved. This stands out to me, WOC creates an atmosphere and community feeling that is unique to Williams.

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Just saw a video re the Williams Outing Club today as part of the welcome site. Great stuff:

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Hi everyone, just thought it is high time I finally chose and announced my choice to those who have taken the time out to answer my questions. In the end, I committed to Williams College.

Before I explain my decision, let me caveat that out of my choices, Williams is not the best when it comes to professional and experiential training. A faculty at Williams told me heads-on that Vassar is better and can give me more of what I want. Why then did I choose Williams?

  1. Cost - Financial Aid
    Taking your advice, I did ask both Dartmouth and Vassar to match Williams’s offer.

After the appeal, the difference between the net cost at Vassar and that at Williams is still a few thousands. Vassar also includes 2000$ of loans in its financial aid package. Thus, as much as
Vassar may be better, I simply cannot afford it.

Williams is the only school out of my choices to guarantee free health insurance, free supplies, 1 round-trip flight to home every year, emergency funds, and stipends for winter clothing and personal needs.

As a result, although Dartmouth did meet Williams’s sticker price, it still lost out. They only cover 50% of health insurance, meaning we’ll spend 2000$ per year on just that. They also did not cover airfares, which to my country can be substantial. However, they do offer loans to cover anything current financial aid does not cover, but loans are out of the question for my family.

*Caveats:

  • Checked with financial aid officers at all schools already.
  • Technically all of them still meet my “need”, but the components of aid and the extent of coverage is really important to my family.
  • This is exclusively weighty because of our low-income status and because of the volatility of a career in the arts. It may not be universal.
  1. Academics and Opportunities - Dartmouth vs Williams
    Honestly, Dartmouth probably edged out. I love its experiential learning leave term at the Northern Stage Theater and the ties with the New York Theater and Film Workshop. That said, though, Williams is not far behind. It offered a lot of career counseling, has shows that connect students to agents, and the Williamstown Festival right in its backyard. Both had strong connections in the industry, though Dartmouth a bit more with its own alumni in the entertainment industry association. Long story short, this aspect is somewhat awash for me between these two.

Caveats:

  • Almost changed my mind because of Mindy and Shonda’s Commencements Speeches. Great stuff.
  1. Vibes
  • Talked to students at both and felt Williams’s were more my crowd
  • Seriously hate Greek Life
  • Dartmouth is more conservative. I had a bad impression after viewing a student’s clip, titled “Theater for social change”, in which Dartmouth students opposed gay marriage and refused to confront their ingrained biases. Also, the many sexual assault allegations.
  • This was enough to outweigh the minor discrepancy discussed in section 2.

Conclusion: Made a thorough, calculated, well-researched decision. I am happy and confident in it. Thank you all for helping me out.

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CONGRATULATIONS!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :+1: :smiley:
And thank you for explaining so thoroughly how you made that choice. It’ll be very useful to future juniors and seniors.

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Congrats on your choice, but I do want to clear something up about that video. I’ve seen it too, and while some of the students interviewed were clearly homophobic, it must be said that the makers of that video clearly sought out such people to expose the issues that some students have. It was a good thing to do, but not representative of the actual campus community (even back then) - and even then, a majority of the students interviewed were not homophobic.

If you see our campus societies, voting history (the town voted 87% blue in 2020, mainly because of the college), and evaluation by LGBT+ organizations, our college is mostly liberal and LGBT+ friendly. Our campus pride index (an impartial NGO which evaluates universities according to their support for LGBT+ students and faculty) is at a very high 4.5, the same as Williams. The college in fact often ranks highly in the campus pride rankings. Dartmouth also recently created the Triangle house (Triangle House | Living Learning Communities), a dorm as well as a community and cultural centre for LGBT+ students. That’s not to mention our increasing numbers of programs and classes exploring LGBT+ issues.

Furthermore, Dartmouth’s main LGBT+ and allies student organization has many times more active members than the Dartmouth Republicans (not that that’s too hard - they only have about a dozen). Right-wing speakers are usually met with protests and placards. The same is not true of LGBT+ events and speakers, which generate major campus enthusiasm and support - and certainly far more than any religious or conservative speakers.

Basically, the idea that Dartmouth is in actuality more “conservative” is not really true. Dartmouth is actually one of the most liberal and LGBT+ friendly campuses in the country. All of my LGBT+ friends at the college love it here, and the most uncomfortable people I know are actually the conservatives, since they know the campus consensus is against them (as it should be). They have one conservative newspaper (unaffiliated with the college itself) which they distribute late at night while most people are asleep, which usually get thrown out immediately or left as doormats. You can see filthy newspapers lining halls and filling trashcans every week when they do this.

That’s not to say that Dartmouth was necessarily the right choice for you over Williams. But it’s not because Dartmouth is conservative or not LGBT+ friendly, because neither of those are true.

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I was reading this thread with interest last night. When I got to the OP’s decision I appreciated reading a list of reasons but did pause at the video mention. Sooo much on the internet. Opinions everywhere. I questioned if this one video could really speak on behalf on the entire Dartmouth culture. Much like the late-night newspaper delivery you describe, the internet is an easy way to anonymously leave opinions at your doorstep. So, I am glad you cleared this up.

But, I am also sadly hearing intolerance here. Are there truly no welcomed thoughts from peers with conservative views (from one degree to another) or religious beliefs (which vary & should not be taken as an indication of political affiliation)? I hope that is not the case either.

Young American academics (and visiting internationals) should be challenged & learn how to be solid, balanced conversationalists, if we care about true peace and conflict resolution.

Depends on what you mean by “conservative views”. Shouting of extremist bigotry may be less welcome than a reasoned discussion about fiscal and economic policy, for example. Indeed, anti-LGB viewpoints appear to be a minority even among Republicans (see PRRI ), so those expressing anti-LGB viewpoints appear to be shrinking into a smaller (although often still noisy) unwelcome fringe.

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Conversation that leads to peace and conflict resolution not tolerance of hate, that is - to be clear.

Ah yes, what I was just clarifying. :+1:

Hey! As for religious beliefs, we have plenty of religious and interfaith events and speakers on campus, with decent attendance. I only said they generate less enthusiasm than pride events. There are usually no protesters for religious speakers. As for conservative viewpoints, since the OP used conservative to mean being socially conservative (i.e. anti LGBT, immigrants, muslims etc.) so did I. Socially conservative speakers are the ones being mostly protested against. Socially conservative students are few and far between and usually immensely uncomfortable in what is now a very accepting and open campus. A few can be found on the staff of the aforementioned newspaper, and this kind of conservative until recently led the (admittedly tiny) on-campus Republican party.

There are a relatively larger number of small government and economic conservatives who are socially liberal, though they tend to be quieter than their very vocal socially conservative peers (who are also small govt and economic conservatives) - and still a small minority. This group also tend to obey basic norms like not denying climate change as well. I suppose you could call them moderate conservatives. Moderate conservative speakers usually are not protested, and moderate conservative viewpoints are usually accepted in classroom discussions and events etc.

However, since the further right-wing and socially conservative students have till recently led the Republican party, and so controlled the funds, events held were generally contrarian and attacking various groups, and speakers invited by them were often bigots, climate deniers, and various unsavory characters. Hence the protests. But, in early 2020, in response to some very incendiary and disrespectful behavior from the Republican party leadership (resulting in campus wide outrage), they were all forced to resign and largely replaced by moderates. That was right before covid hit, so I’m not sure what the effects will end up being, but I believe it will be positive for the campus political atmosphere. I know a couple of them, and one is actually a friend of mine, and they are quite decent people, being ideologically far closer to McCain than Trump.

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